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Original poster

Debbie Hayton in the TES

109 replies

NeurotrashWarrior · 10/05/2019 11:15

https://twitter.com/debbiehayton/status/1126712166466244610?s=21

I can't access it as not a subscriber but thanks Debbie for promoting trans gender trend's pack.

Getting this into the TES is very much needed.

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Original poster
NeurotrashWarrior · 12/05/2019 15:46

So yes, thank you Debbie!

I can't understand why Devon is in a huff though. I think the piece is very sensitive to trans questioning children too.

Highlights duty of care to all pupils.

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Original poster
NeurotrashWarrior · 12/05/2019 15:45

Short answer; there's a lot on toilets.

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Original poster
NeurotrashWarrior · 12/05/2019 15:44

I've bought a copy that I'm just looking through.

The piece is explicitly clear about the issues around toilets for girls in schools; privacy, embarrassment, menstruation. It's also explicitly clear around the issues in sports; school has a duty of care that girls are not harmed by larger bodies boys as well as being "dispirited" (direct quote) due to male physical advantage.

It does this by highlighting the key problematic phrases in a range of published material from a wide range of places such as Allsorts, Unions as well as how Transgender Trend's pack gives balance to the inclusion of trans identifying individuals while absolutely safeguarding the sex based rights of girls.

Debbie has pointed out that trans is an umbrella term (not her words; she's more specific about what this covers) and then that we all have a sex and this is biological, and intersex is different and advocacy groups wish this to be a distinction.

She then describes the sex based policies copied up thread.

I suppose I'm a little confused about the specifics of one sentence that says "when boys and girls need to be treated differently, eg pe" to follow school policies. I'm guessing this is sex based as pe policy referring to changing etc is sex based in schools. I feel that could be more explicit, however I know that's the law and school leaders should too plus given the context of the rest of the piece.

The lawyer has advised several schools on transgender policy enquires; contact details are given.

It's clear that Transgender Trend's pack is explained as being a good approach.

I hope I'm allowed to write what I've written above; there much more detail that I do think many of us would find interesting, especially the dates when a definite change in guidance appears to have started. I do urge you to try to get a copy.

The last time I bought one it was still made of newspaper! It's now a shiny magazine, in case anyone else isn't sure what they're looking for.

V pleased to see the piece on martial arts too; I think it's ridiculous they're not part of the curriculum.

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DuMondeB · 12/05/2019 14:56

Having seen some of the bullying that Debbie is subjected to from TRAs, a few direct questions from concerned women on Mumsnet pales in significance! Debbie is of course free to answer or ignore, as are we all.

Well done to Debbie for getting this piece published - it’s a significant achievement, and hopefully, a wedge in the door or a foundation on which to build a truly GC feminist argument.

Debbie is transsexual, not female, and while positions sometimes align, they also differ. This is to be expected, and in these days of literal thought policing, differing positions should definitely be tolerated (as long as one position isn’t masquerading as the position of another).

I thought Miranda Yardley had it bad, but I suspect Debbie is currently trans public enemy number one, according to the genderists.

Now, any feminist subscribers up for writing a letter to the editor, thanking them for publishing Debbie’s piece and clarifying a more GC feminist take?

KatvonHostileExtremist · 12/05/2019 11:07

I really think this happening is huge.

Puuuuuullllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

KatvonHostileExtremist · 12/05/2019 11:05

Pink News are all in a flutter about the Natasha Devon resignation.

I can't help it's an own goal resigning from a paper, thus silencing yourself.... But hey! Grin

She's getting owned in her second tweet about it. She can seem to give examples of transphobia from Transgender Trend. Funny that

She also misses out the bit where Debbie is trans. Debbie being trans and a teacher doesn't count it seems. Isn't that transphobia?

Debbie Hayton in the TES
Debbie Hayton in the TES
Debbie Hayton in the TES
plattercake · 12/05/2019 07:02

Meant to include a comment about DHayton still using women's spaces as far as I am aware.. and this was not contradicted by DHayton yesterday.

plattercake · 12/05/2019 07:00

Maybe its just me, and I haven't got access to the full piece, but can anyone please tell me exactly what DHayton says should be done about sex segregation and toilets/ changing etc?

I have read this bit quoted by Lang Regarding toilets, changing rooms and residential trips, separate provision – private facilities such as “accessible” toilets, individual changing cubicles and showers, and single rooms – can preserve the rights and dignity of all. While it would be ideal to offer every pupil these options, building design and economies may mean that this remains an aspiration.

but is this as far as DHayton goes? When it comes down to it, I want to know what DHayton recommends be done when, as is too frequent, it is decided that money is to tight for additional separate provision.

Is DHayton recommending that women and girls just give up their rights and dignities and be made to share space with the opposite sex? Or what?

I want a definitive answer to this.

If we have to settle sometimes for a male person/ transwoman being listened to when women are not, and I have to hear them lauded by some on FWR etc, I want to know exactly what their agenda is.

EmpressLesbianInChair · 11/05/2019 20:59

I think that’s totally understandable, Tinsel.

TinselAngel · 11/05/2019 20:50

Apologies for the derail Neurotrash, but it's something I feel so strongly about, I can't help pointing it out.

Original poster
NeurotrashWarrior · 11/05/2019 20:18

Interestingly there's a trans widows thread on the TES forums.

I also forgot how shit their interface is

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Original poster
NeurotrashWarrior · 11/05/2019 20:10

Truth and angel - I agree with both of you. A very complex area.

it's so very important this message gets to school leaders.

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Original poster
NeurotrashWarrior · 11/05/2019 20:08

Nothing on Debbie's article but clearly a lot of GC commentators and very worried teachers around blockers etc, bar a few who claim no issue.

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truthisarevolutionaryact · 11/05/2019 20:06

TinselAngel
I did acknowledge this shortly after making that comment. I also explained that it is so rare for anyone to get publicity in the Education press about this safeguarding disaster that I was concerned that the message was not diluted for any passing teachers who might read this thread (as opposed to my female socialisation) But I might be wrong about that Wink

TinselAngel · 11/05/2019 20:00

I'm not sure how helpful it is to derail this thread with your views DodoPatrol

Women should not be censured for differing with the position of transsexuals, in a space designed for debate about feminism, by women. (However strong our female socialisation is).

Original poster
NeurotrashWarrior · 11/05/2019 19:56

I wondered how that would go down.

Erm, person who is trans and a teacher tells you the way it should be and you flounce? Don't forget your ego on the way out...

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MrsSnippyPants · 11/05/2019 19:36

Meanwhile, someone is not happy. Natasha Devon "I am absolutely gutted to have to tell you I just officially resigned as a @tes columnist."

twitter.com/_NatashaDevon/status/1127209584865763328?fbclid=IwAR3yvXTZ5EGZsgf1EbWEbwJ5fDRgXQDs68UURTSyN04izLVbMP4ZiDnvLkc

Original poster
NeurotrashWarrior · 11/05/2019 18:39

Good to hear re lawyer. Thank you Debbie.

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NowtSalamander · 11/05/2019 18:21

Thank you so much, Debbie. My SLT are really struggling to accommodate our new wave of trans pupils, and I will point them towards this on Monday.

You are always a voice of sanity amidst all the crap you get. All those years of classroom management training really paying off!!

FlorenceLyons · 11/05/2019 17:44

It's been gone over by a lawyer and this is highlighted at the foot of the article, so one would hope not.

I'm** sure that won't stop the usual suspects from taking potshots, though.

KatvonHostileExtremist · 11/05/2019 16:27

That's fascinating Debbie thanks for the tip, it's moved dangerously quickly without a shred of evidence (as well documented now by Panorama etc).

I can not overstate how important it this that the gc view is being presented by the TES. There is hope.

I'm definitely going to try and buy a copy. Now that takes me back!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 11/05/2019 15:15

It's been gone over by a lawyer and this is highlighted at the foot of the article, so one would hope not.

Hah! That's great to hear!

LangCleg · 11/05/2019 15:14

I'm amazed, and impressed, at the TES for printing it. I'm sure both you and they will be getting a lot of flak for it.

It's been gone over by a lawyer and this is highlighted at the foot of the article, so one would hope not.

FlorenceLyons · 11/05/2019 14:53

Debbie, this is an excellent article which I think heads and teachers will find incredibly helpful. I'm amazed, and impressed, at the TES for printing it. I'm sure both you and they will be getting a lot of flak for it.

Upzadaizy · 11/05/2019 07:58

Thanks @DebbieinBirmingham for putting forward such a clear and evidence-based view.

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