Times article - Men ‘should accept trans women in changing rooms’

I think if all changing rooms were unisex we would not get this weird body fetishisation which leads to leering etc

So if women made their bodies more available for men to look at, they wouldn’t get fetishised?

Because it’s not as though women’s bodies aren’t made available for scrutiny all the time, everywhere, 24/7 online for your viewing pleasure is it?

"I think if all changing rooms were unisex we would not get this weird body fetishisation which leads to leering etc"

Did you read The Times article recently where it found that the majority of sexual attacks at Britain's public swimming pools and sports centres occur in unisex changing rooms?

"The vast majority of reported sexual assaults at public swimming pools in the UK take place in unisex changing rooms, new statistics reveal.

The data, obtained through a Freedom of Information request by the Sunday Times, suggests that unisex changing rooms are more dangerous for women and girls than single-sex facilities.

Just under 90 per cent of complaints regarding changing room sexual assaults, voyeurism and harassment are about incidents in unisex facilities.

What’s more, two thirds of all sexual attacks at leisure centres and public swimming pools take place in unisex changing rooms".

Independent link as I don't have a share token for The Times.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

I've lived in 7 European countries (and one Europe adjacent, and a few more not in Europe) and sex segregated changing has been by far the norm.

The only places I've been where communal is the norm is centerparcs, (which still does have sex segregated areas if you want them) a couple of local pools with changing villages, and I'm straining here, but I think I've been to a beach pool where there were just little sectioned off showers, so not really changing facilities at all, but they were mixed.

Everywhere else has been sex segregated. More so than the UK in fact.

I'll note that my experience is generally southern/central Europe, not Scandinavia, so perhaps that makes the difference (although given how much time people spent in swimming costumes in some of the places, I'm actually surprised at how they still preferred the sex segregated changing)

Brilliant article, I especially love this quote from MM

The idea that a man wearing a dress would be harassed by other men is awful, but feminists have been fighting hard to make sure society is accepting of people who step outside gender roles.

Firmly makes the point that this is a problem with men, not feminists

My personal unisex experience was Austria but, upon googling it, it seems the standards vary by region and country.

I think if all changing rooms were unisex we would not get this weird body fetishisation which leads to leering etc.

I still also think that individual (private) gyms should have whatever rules they like and people could vote with their feet. Gyms are a crowded market place and there is room to accommodate everyone in a space where they are comfortable (as long as they can pay). However, gym membership is a luxury that the majority of the population is excluded from (financially) and not a human right.

Public facilities clearly need a consistent policy which I would agree should be male bodied in male changing rooms.

Good to see "male genitalia" there.

Hoping that The Times readers do a bit of googling of JY.

Bollockstobrexit
I've been swimming in France where the showers are a bit like a corridor between pool and changing area and the changing area is all cubicles(decent size for using with kids) and it's all unisex. The layout of the showers meant no one took of their swimwear and it was very busy as part of a walkway so felt safe. Elsewhere in Europe I have only been to single sex changing areas.

@larrygrylls

Glad you are happy to have TW in male spaces - they are after all male. Please talk to other males about this and get them on board. TW should feel safe with other males and society needs to make that happen. I am sure other women would agree that TM are safe and welcome in womens spaces.

If we could then put Gender under article 9 as a belief that you could choose to have or not and scrap the GRA that would be even better. (The original need for the GRA has been negated due to same sex marriages now being legal anyway.).

Which European countries have mixed changing rooms? I've lived in a few and have never come across this.

The quotes from Meghan McAlpine and from Joan McAlpine in the article don't sound radical at all. They sound like common-sense truths

In these days of Orwellian group think, the truth is a radical act.

The quotes from Meghan McAlpine and from Joan McAlpine in the article don't sound radical at all. They sound like common-sense truths.

More than happy to accept any human being changing with me. In some European countries most changing rooms are unisex.Aside from schools, I do not really understand the changing room battle (from either side)

Maybe this is because you have never felt threatened or vulnerable in the way that women do. and are. Men ogle and leer at women and girls; many make disparaging or so-called complimentary comments about female bodies - even in 'neutral' spaces such as supermarkets, shops, on the street. In many cultures, even now - men feel at liberty to touch a woman's body without her permission - and in ways we are sexually motivated.

Women want and require single sex spaces in order to feel safe and to be able to engage in everyday activities outside of the home. Young girls need to learn to value their own bodily integrity and to be able to control their own sexual boundaries.

Women's bodies are different to men's bodies and many functions of the female body are deeply personal and very private.

That you are happy being naked around anyone is great for you. You obviously have never encountered the sorts of threats mentioned above.

She was blocked from the social medial site for life for using the male pronoun when referring to Jonathan Yaniv, a self-identified trans woman who attempted to sue 16 female beauticians in Vancouver for refusing to provide “Brazilian” bikini wax services.

Beautifully put.

If you could start making more noise about welcoming TW into male changing rooms, really get some traction behind it, that would be awesome. Thanks in advance.

Affirming support under the line the OP Times article would be a great start.

larrygrylls it’s great that you’re so accepting of transwomen in your changing rooms. So you should be, as they’re male bodied. If you could start making more noise about welcoming TW into male changing rooms, really get some traction behind it, that would be awesome. Thanks in advance.

There is surely a market (if these boards are anything to go by) for a female sex only gym.

They exist, they are also attractive to some male transpeople.There is a very real risk of being sued for upholding a female sex only gym.

NZ www.stuff.co.nz/business/104300841/revive-fitness-gym-denies-transgender-woman-from-joining

Canada www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/body-blitz-transgender-policy-1.4158397

Aside from schools, I do not really understand the changing room battle

Did you see what happened when some women attempted to swim in a male environment. They called the police.

You do get it. You are just choosing not to. Those women were not a threat and yet the men still called the police. If it was the other way round, the police would get called, and still remove the women - from their own spaces.

So women = not allowed in male spaces, not allowed any female spaces.

Thus they stay at home, just what men would like, right? Barefoot and in the kitchen.

It is pretty simple to work it out.

Brilliant.
Has reminded me to donate to MM Lawsuit again.

Aside from schools, I do not really understand the changing room battle (from either side).

Girls & women need single sex spaces to change for their safety, privacy and dignity.

Having single sex provision for changing rooms enables all girls and women the potential to take part.

Making changing rooms mixed sex compromises girls & women's safety, privacy & dignity.

Making changing rooms mixed sex will mean that girls & women are impacted including being excluded as a consequence of the change in provision..

I live in a European country and we have communal changing rooms that are single sex. Sadly, this country also seems to be going down the rabbit hole, but last time I bumped into a naked guy in the swimming pool showers when my girls were present, I quickly got them out of there and had reception tell him off. Staff were outraged at him.

That’s a great article.

Excellent article but I expect the Times to get stick for it , but not by its commentators who are mainly GC. JY wasn't behaving like a woman wanting a bikini wax, JY was behaving like a men's rights activist or creepy fetishist. Some women did agree to wax JY's male genitalia. If it was just about getting JY's bits waxed JY would have stuck with her but it wasn't it was about making women feel uncomfortable and trying to force them in to intimate contact with male genitals. Transsexuals should be condemning this behaviour too.

I am a man therefore you don’t get why women do not want to share changing rooms with men. As for other European countries, I don’t think that’s accurate. Regardless, we don’t live there. Don’t force other cultures on us.

If The Times can refer to JY by his male name

She was blocked from the social medial site for life for using the male pronoun when referring to Jonathan Yaniv, a self-identified trans woman who attempted to sue 16 female beauticians in Vancouver for refusing to provide “Brazilian” bikini wax services.

does that mean we can here on MN too?