Times article - Men ‘should accept trans women in changing rooms’

larrygrylls

Do you really not understand the cause and effect here? Men are responsible for the vast majority of crimes of a sexual nature - rape, sexual assault, paedophilia, voyeurism...

Do you think all these crimes would disappear overnight if we had mixed sex changing rooms? Or do you think that the sort of men who commit these crimes would just see an easier opportunity to get what they want?

Justhadathought has no one punched him in the face for touching their child - I bloody well would and kick him in the balls and generally go ballistic at him for touching a child of mine. When it comes to my kids social niceties don't register with me.

Off topic rather, but having sons, I favour the explanation that ogling and abuse of power is down to socialisation rather than inherent in males. The alternative is somewhat depressing

Either opinion can only ever be a theory though

Do you all really think that post op trans sexuals should be using the changing rooms of their birth sex?

So a TW with breasts and no penis or testicles gets changed with men? Or a TM with no breasts and now a penis gets changed with women?

I have no idea what the answer is but that just sounds wrong to me.

The most progressive societies with regard to sexual integration are probably The Netherlands and Scandinavia. They (again probably) have the least leering, ogling etc. On the other hand, sexually segregated societies (think Saudi Arabia, Pakistan etc) have horribly misogynistic cultures

Well, this appears to be the contemporary consensus, however we are now starting to see is that the overly liberal attitudes towards pornography and prostitution ( in the Netherlands), for example, are not better for, or protective of women at all. And rates of femicide and violence towards women do not decrease either.

I do not really understand the changing room battle

Ok - well then, do you understand the concept of 'Chestertons Fence'?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chesterton%27s_fence

Within a couple of weeks of opening, the pool had to task staff with permanently supervising the changing room because female customers suffered relentless levels of sexual harassment. It's been a few years now and still going on

What has happened at our local pool - with the mixed changing rooms, is that one particular man has been approaching women with young children and making uncomfortable and inappropriate comments towards the children . Even touching their faces.

I think if all changing rooms were unisex we would not get this weird body fetishisation which leads to leering etc

Sounds idealistic. The day when men stop ogling women, especially semi naked ones, will be the day we no longer have sexed bodies.

Until then, women and girls need and require safe, private spaces.

It is funny how many people on this thread take the view that men are programmed to ogle, almost as if they inherited it with their Y chromosome.

The #MeToo campaign ran to 11,000,000 posts in under 24 hours.

Twenty percent of females will be raped or sexually assaulted at some point during their lives.

I don't think it's 'funny'.

It’s not really up to men to accept transwomen in the men’s changing rooms. Transwomen have a legal right to be there. They are Male. It is the male changing room. Why are we giving men the impression they have a say over whether other men can use the changing room they’re legally entitled to use?

YY
Male transpeople should be empowered and encouraged to use the facilities provided for their sex safely and without harrassment.

It is funny how many people on this thread take the view that men are programmed to ogle

Now who said that?

It’s not really up to men to accept transwomen in the men’s changing rooms. Transwomen have a legal right to be there. They are Male. It is the male changing room. Why are we giving men the impression they have a say over whether other men can use the changing room they’re legally entitled to use?

It is funny how many people on this thread take the view that men are programmed to ogle, almost as if they inherited it with their Y chromosome.

The most progressive societies with regard to sexual integration are probably The Netherlands and Scandinavia. They (again probably) have the least leering, ogling etc. On the other hand, sexually segregated societies (think Saudi Arabia, Pakistan etc) have horribly misogynistic cultures.

So, the idea that unisex changing rooms will reduce ogling etc is not some far fetched idea, it is kind of in line with what a lot more progressive societies think of as normal.

@datun Exactly that.

All the effort going into policing women and forcing them to accept males in their spaces should go on protecting GNC males in Male spaces

Yes, Meghan is changing the conversation, bringing it round to where it should be. To men getting over their homophobia and fear of non conformity and being accepting of feminine men. This is a male issue-men should be dealing with it

I cannot wait to see MM at the woman’s place meeting this month. I think she’s terrific

A family member designs and supplies services for public buildings. He updated a university a few years ago. He was told to install all unisex toilets.
He created 3 separate rooms in each space - Male, Female and Unisex. Even back then he could see that the idea of all unisex loos and changing rooms was ridiculous and harmful.
This approach would work well, but for the fact that a certain group of males only want to access the female facilities. I don't understand why so many people (mostly men and politicians,and a few women) fail to grasp this very simple and obvious point.
I heard on the news recently that the first "transgender refuge" has been opened in London. I do hope it will be appreciated and used.

Totally agree. This is about men not treating other males less favourably because of them transitioning. All the effort going into policing women and forcing them to accept males in their spaces should go on protecting GNC males in Male spaces.

Leering, cat calling and sexual bullying is about power, not attraction

Exactly. It's also rather creepy to suggest the solution is to provide more women for men to dominate, thereby satisfying the appetite? Instead of, you know, addressing male violence and sexual dominance.

In terms of Megan Murphy, her idea in this is excellent.

Let's put the problem into the male arena. Let's have male pundits on chat shows discussing why they would (or wouldn't) accept a transwomen. Let's hear them say it out loud. One way, or the other. Because any commentary at all will be incredibly revealing.

Let's hear tv hosts like Piers Morgan or journalists like Owen Jones, on record, on telly, actually discuss it.

At the moment, it's only women discussing it. And they get dismissed on the basis that they're not men. Whatever they say.

I'd love a panel of men to be asked the question that she is posing. Not because I could anticipate the answer, but because the very discussion would be dynamite.

If they disagree, why? If they agree, why is it not happening?

The issue of validation would rise instantly. And why, or whether, men in general think that women should validate other men at their own expense.

Let's force men to account for themselves.

I think if all changing rooms were unisex we would not get this weird body fetishisation which leads to leering etc

Are you one of these people that also think if women just stopped say no to sex, then rape wouldn't be an issue?

I think if all changing rooms were unisex we would not get this weird body fetishisation which leads to leering etc

LOL to the thought that allowing males better access to females of all ages in a state of undress will lead to less ogling.

But on a more serious note, my local swimming pool was rebuilt. The old one had single-sex changing rooms with showers and toilets. The new one has a mixed-sex changing room with shared showers and separate, single-sex toilets.

Within a couple of weeks of opening, the pool had to task staff with permanently supervising the changing room because female customers suffered relentless levels of sexual harassment. It's been a few years now and still going on.

I used to go swimming three times a week in our old swimming pool and started off the same in the new one. But the men hanging about the changing room, observing all the women, the open nature of the cubicles, the unpleasant experience of standing next to a bloke washing himself with his hands inside his swimming trunks - all of this makes for an uncomfortable atmosphere that I don't wish to experience. So I've stopped going. It's now a space where many females keep their heads down and try to disappear into a cubicle as fast as they can while the males strut around like they own the place.

In my experience, mixed-sex spaces inevitably become dominated by males. That's not a benign state of affairs which benefits females. So I profoundly disagree with your wish to see all facilities made mixed-sex. I want a space where my privacy, dignity and, yes, safety are maintained when I am in a state of undress. Which means a space free from all males above a certain age.

Surely it is for the TW to accept they are male and use the facilities suitable for their biological sex?
Re facilities in Europe. Yes all mixed in France, changing rooms with short doors and mixed showers and the unlabelled toilets so we are confronted by men using the urinals. Not great for us let alone children and teenage girls. However at our local pool in Spain, several different labels clearly marking men and boys then men with children, then women with children and then women and girls. Slightly confusing as for extra clarity they also use the words masculino and feminino. However locked doors between the male and female facilities.

I think if all changing rooms were unisex we would not get this weird body fetishisation which leads to leering etc.

I'm afraid that's wishful thinking, Larry. I spent the best part of my childhood and teenage years in a country where attitudes to nudity are more open, and I encountered ogling and lewd comments as soon I developed breasts.
You say you don't 'get' the changing rooms battle. Get what exactly? Some women don't want to change in front of males, and they shouldn't have to explain their reasons. A simple 'no' should suffice.

I used to change/shower with the male team members of my mixed Volleyball team but they were all people I knew and was comfortable with and it was pre-mobile phones.

Leering, cat calling and sexual bullying is about power, not attraction

I think if all changing rooms were unisex we would not get this weird body fetishisation which leads to leering etc

Do you think that men's attitudes to women and women's bodies are caused by single sex changing rooms? Or have I misunderstood?