Times article - Men ‘should accept trans women in changing rooms’

Someone didn't get the message re ogling to all Swedish men ... remember this?

Well done, I was going to try to do an advanced search to find the MN thread at the time.

Do you all really think that post op trans sexuals should be using the changing rooms of their birth sex?

It’s not their birth sex. It’s just their sex. It doesn’t change with surgery.

So a TW with breasts and no penis or testicles gets changed with men? Or a TM with no breasts and now a penis gets changed with women?

I don't see there is any more of an issue (so none) sharing female single sex space with a female transperson who has had operations than I have sharing with any other female who has had surgeries such as mastectomy, hysterectomy.

I understand that some female transpeople may want private individual changing space.
That option should always be available, many females need this.

post op trans sexuals

Are a minority even in their own community, very few have the surgery. Regardless, no operation changes your sex and no operation gives you a penis you didn’t have before. I am totally supportive of a third option.

So if women made their bodies more available for men to look at, they wouldn’t get fetishised?

Because it’s not as though women’s bodies aren’t made available for scrutiny all the time, everywhere, 24/7 online for your viewing pleasure is it?

This this this. I’m not making my body a test case for your theory Larry. I like it as it is, I like having spaces where just other women are. NO.

post op trans sexuals

Why can't men make room for the likes of Kelly Maloney, a post-op transexual? Why would they object to Cailtlyn Jenner, a post op transexual, using a cubicle? If they find it hard to accept transexuals then they aren't being very woke, are they? They are being transphobic.

Transexuals are protected in law from being discriminated against because of their gender reassignment. They are entitled to use the services and facilities designated for their sex. It is their human right.

The most progressive societies with regard to sexual integration are probably The Netherlands and Scandinavia. They (again probably) have the least leering, ogling etc.

These two societies are very different in their attitude to women. This was quoted on another thread.

"Nowadays, a little boy in Sweden grows up with the fact that buying sex is a crime. A little boy in the Netherlands grows up with the knowledge that women sit in display windows and can be ordered like mass-produced goods."

www.spiegel.de/international/germany/human-trafficking-persists-despite-legality-of-prostitution-in-germany-a-902533-4.html

Which "progressive" society do you favour, larry? Also, your 'probably' implies you're just making up that assertion.

I have absolutely no interest personally, in individuals private parts, or indeed whether they are trans. I just don’t want males in my space when I’m undressing.

Yep. It's really not us who are 'genitally fixated'. I don't know how men behave in their changing rooms, but the norm in open plan women's is a lack of interest in other people's genitals/boobs. Usually women dress discreetly, facing the bench.

The most progressive societies with regard to sexual integration are probably The Netherlands and Scandinavia. They (again probably) have the least leering, ogling etc.

As I said, that's not my experience as a young girl and woman.
Why don't you tell us, Larry, as a man, how much leering and ogling would you say women should be able to cope with in the name of sexual integration?

Really, really progressive...

www.iamexpat.nl/expat-info/dutch-expat-news/45-cent-dutch-women-have-been-assaulted

(relates to assault in general but includes references to sexual assault)

So a TW with breasts and no penis or testicles gets changed with men?

A man who lost his penis and testicles in an accident is still a man, so gets changed with the men. Since people can't change sex, how is the person you mention any different from such a man?

If you think it's important that this person doesn't have to change with the men, then you should be campaigning for a third, mixed sex space. I'd support that, but TRAs wouldn't (which really tells you all you need to know).

Post OP TW conundrum.
Cubicles
Third space
But not in with the females.
Most GNC males do not have any sort of surgery. If an organisation has to expend staffing effort to keep unisex changing room safe (as per example given above) then they should use that effort to keep GNC males safe.
If NAMALT as we are told then it is not a problem.
Let's work on men accepting GNC males in their spaces rather than allowing them to palm them off onto females. Or is this all about validation rather than just wanting to pee (or swim)?

All the swimming pools in my area have village type changing rooms with individual cubicles. On a personal level, they suit me because I've usually got my 7 year old son with me and he is too big to take into the ladies but too small to go into the men's alone.

But I do think that this style of changing should be in addition to single sex facilities, not instead of.

Every once in a while a story will make its way to the local papers or the local Facebook page about men approaching teenage girls and there is always an avalanche of comments from outraged people. You'd think they'd be outraged at the voyeurism but usually they are outraged at the females making a fuss.

Mmm, eating rye bread and enjoying out door hot tub and then expecting a down turn in general male anti social behaviour towards women would seem to be rather cargo cult-ish

Better to fully understand the causes before compromising women’s safety, privacy and dignity for a theory, no?

Someone didn't get the message re ogling to all Swedish men ... remember this?

https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/8qbhy2/swedenhistoricallopenairbathhremoves_sex/

So a TW with breasts and no penis or testicles gets changed with men? Or a TM with no breasts and now a penis gets changed with women?

I have absolutely no interest personally, in individuals private parts, or indeed whether they are trans. I just don’t want males in my space when I’m undressing.

Justhadathought has no one punched him in the face for touching their child - I bloody well would and kick him in the balls and generally go ballistic at him for touching a child of mine. When it comes to my kids social niceties don't register with me

My daughter reported the incident to the staff, as she felt very uncomfortable, and apparently a number of other people had too. She wasn't sure how to take him...Was he a bit simple? Or just over friendly? She did not want to get someone into trouble for being 'friendly'.

Yup. Really progressive.

nltimes.nl/2019/02/08/fewer-crimes-registered-nl-sex-crimes

The most progressive societies with regard to sexual integration are probably The Netherlands and Scandinavia. They (again probably) have the least leering, ogling etc. On the other hand, sexually segregated societies (think Saudi Arabia, Pakistan etc) have horribly misogynistic cultures.

So, the idea that unisex changing rooms will reduce ogling etc is not some far fetched idea, it is kind of in line with what a lot more progressive societies think of as normal.

Two things. Firstly you say probably they have the least leering and ogling but that's your guess rather than an evidenced fact.
If it were true it's likely to have far deeper causes than just unisex changing rooms. Without understanding and replicating those deeper causes it would surely be folly to expect the same behaviours.

is because...

8Do you all really think that post op trans sexuals should be using the changing rooms of their birth sex?So a TW with breasts and no penis or testicles gets changed with men? Or a TM with no breasts and now a penis gets changed with women?I have no idea what the answer is but that just sounds wrong to me*

It all sounds wrong to me..... and the only solution I can think of is for third spaces.

So a TW with breasts and no penis or testicles gets changed with men? Or a TM with no breasts and now a penis gets changed with women?

Yes it’s superficially complicated

But one thing is very simple, they are male so do not belong in women’s single sex spaces

People make decisions that make their lives more complicated every day. It’s not my job to sort it out for them

Decomposing you don't think a post op male should change with males but what about pre op with females?

A post op male made the choice to have surgery but is still male. Women and girls did not make the choice to have males in our spaces.

So a TW with breasts and no penis or testicles gets changed with men? Or a TM with no breasts and now a penis gets changed with women?

I have no idea what the answer is but that just sounds wrong to me.

Start asking yourself why it feels wrong to you. Articulate it.

It’s not really up to men to accept transwomen in the men’s changing rooms. Transwomen have a legal right to be there. They are Male. It is the male changing room. Why are we giving men the impression they have a say over whether other men can use the changing room they’re legally entitled to use?

That's a very good point ILove. However the apparent reason TW want to use female spaces are because they feel unsafe with or have been harassed or intimidated by other men (if only I could imagine what that must be like... ), so there is obviously a problem there that needs men like larrygrylls, who doesn't mind who he changes with, to make it clear they won't tolerate that sort of behaviour towards TW and that TW will be as safe as any other man in male changing rooms.