Times article - Men ‘should accept trans women in changing rooms’

Trans men are women. They are born in female bodies. They have lived as girls and women. I mostly feel sympathetic for them as I think many of them should have been treated for other things before transitioning.

Post-op meaning what? Post-op is now used to reference everything from laser hair removal to hysterectomy to facial surgery to bottom surgery. Few people - trans men included - get “bottom surgery”. Even if they have had a phalloplasty it is not a penis. I mean if they were walking around with it out it would be rather clear it isn’t.

I won’t force trans men to change with women but I also won’t force men to accept trans men into their spaces. Just as I don’t want men to force trans women in mine. That is why third spaces can be helpful, but third spaces should not at the expense of sex-segregated spaces.

I can understand why people might think that more open nudity might lead to less sexualisation. I think it comes from looking at some cultures where that seems to be the pattern. In places where people actually just don't wear clothing, there is a different attitude to nudity. And it's also true that cultural norms change - there was a time when showing ankles would be risqué in our culture, and now it really isn't.

I don't think that can just be applied in other contexts in a simple way though. At a basic level, men and women are interested in each other sexually, so to create a scenario where that doesn't apply, you have to really desexualise the context. In places where people wear a lot of clothing most of the time, in part because of the climate, you won't have that in the same way as you would see if you lived in the middle of the rainforest. That's not in itself bad or good, it's just a reflection of the environment. It's not something that needs to change for some abstract reason.
Another element in our culture is the consumerist drive to sexualise pretty much everything, and women's bodies in particular. I think as long as that is the case, it will be difficult to desexualise the body at the same time.
I do think there is something to be said for people having fewer hand-ups about their bodies, and I think unisex spaces make that worse. The move to complete privacy in cubicles, which has happened over my lifetime, has meant that women and girls are less often in situations where they see other normal women's bodies. (I am not sure if this is true for men.) So almost all the bodies they are exposed to are models, actresses, and so on.

• All German women strip completely naked in the showers, young and old, and they shower thoroughly and wash their hair, then put their swimsuits back on

I bet a lot of German women and girls self-exclude from that - and incomers from other cultures.

There needs to be provision for both sex segregation and privacy within that. (And unisex provision for parents and children, and for people with carers).

It's possible to achieve this even in quite small places.

Would it not bother you have a post op trans man in the ladies changing room?

It would bother me less than it would bother me to have a transwoman in the changing rooms. But ideally I'd like a third space instead.

Only a man would think that:

1. Ogling diminishes just because you expose female bodies more to men (look at how much porn has done to reduce objectification! /s);

1. Ogling is our primary threat from men as female-bodied people (hint for *larrygylls” it’s not, it’s actually sexual assault, rape, and murder).

“As a man”, you can’t ever speak for our actual lives experience as women. Period.

FeministCat

Would it not bother you have a post op trans man in the ladies changing room?

I think this is where I'm coming unstuck. If people go into changing rooms according to their sex then trans men will be changing in the female changing rooms and I would find that just as difficult as a man changing in there.

larrygrylls

Oh, sure, unisex change rooms totally solve the issue. Except if you are female.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

The vast majority of reported sexual assaults at public swimming pools in the UK take place in unisex changing rooms, new statistics reveal.

The data, obtained through a Freedom of Information request by the Sunday Times, suggests that unisex changing rooms are more dangerous for women and girls than single-sex facilities.

Just under 90 per cent of complaints regarding changing room sexual assaults, voyeurism and harassment are about incidents in unisex facilities.

What’s more, two thirds of all sexual attacks at leisure centres and public swimming pools take place in unisex changing rooms.

Of 134 complaints over 2017-2018, 120 reported incidents took place in gender-neutral changing rooms and just 14 were in single-sex changing areas.

You “as a man” should accept trans women into your spaces as they are men. Does not mean we have to accept men in our spaces.

All German women strip completely naked in the showers, young and old, and they shower thoroughly and wash their hair, then put their swimsuits back on

I would hate that.

Its Ramadan, I really doubt many of the local men where I live would welcome mixed sex toilets or changing rooms.

I was once a member of a female only gym. It was brilliant.

Germany has a swimming pool culture in which there's a large open space with cubicles for both sexes, with doors at both ends; you go in one end, change, and when you come out the other end you are in the "clean" area. You take your clothes and put them in a locker, usually with a wrist key or electronic button.
Then everyone separates, men and women. All German women strip completely naked in the showers, young and old, and they shower thoroughly and wash their hair, then put their swimsuits back on and either go to the pool or back to the unisex changing cabins. I think it's a pretty good system.
If a man came into the ladies' shower they would chase him out. German woman are very direct. They wouldn't stand for it.

Some very good comments under the article and pleasingly, some men who read the Times (unlike some on here) get the issue and reckon that 3rd spaces are the solution.

Some people don’t care about nudity in front of anyone; lots of people do however, for a variety of reasons.

I'm personally not too bothered by it - but I conform to the norms of discreet changing because I know other people are bothered. I may not particularly feel the need for single sex facilities myself nowadays but that's completely irrelevant - I understand why many girls and women do need them.

Some people don’t care about nudity in front of anyone; lots of people do however, for a variety of reasons.

We took dc swimming when in France last year. Very open mixed changing area with a shortage of cubicles. DSS aged 13 was confronted with more than one half-naked woman. He was utterly mortified, didn’t know where to look and ended up refusing to change at all. So he didn’t go swimming and the rest of us cut our visit short. I had found a cubicle fortunately because oddly enough I didn’t want to change into my swimming costume in front of my adolescent stepson, for both our sakes.

from the link above about making single sex facilities mixed in Sweden, heresyandwitchcraft wrote last year:

"Jeanette Larsson, a former policewoman, LGBTQ activist and lecturer in diversity issues, wrote a letter to the editor in Sydsvenskan this Friday June 8 [2018]. Google Translated version (briefly corrected by me):

The basic idea is wrong. Women are discriminated by men taking over their space

The first Monday of the month, men can move freely inside the department that is otherwise "ladies", writes Jeanette Larsson.

Malmö Sauna Club announced on April 30th that "Now history is written in Ribersborg's cold bath!"

Yes, it certainly is.

The first Monday of each month nowadays, men can move freely inside the department that is otherwise "ladies". It takes place under the slogan "Queer Kallis", which is highlighted by elevated pride flags and a beautiful rug in all the colors of the rainbow at the entrance, as well as a brochure that states "there is zero tolerance to unwelcome looks".

Politicians and LGBTQ activists have certainly thought about and want to satisfy transgender rights and opportunities. I also want that and naively walked into the ladies' area on Monday.

"Outside the sauna there are two benches where older ladies, the ones we call the "regulars", usually sit and talk about life. Some of them have two breasts, others one, some don't have breasts. There is no doubt that here they can relax and feel safe.

But on Monday, three men, legs widely apart, took up the entire bench while looking out over the bridges. An elderly woman with a walking aid looked scared and chose to go elsewhere. On the bridges women were scarce, but plenty of men walked back and forth.

Two young women beside me embarrassedly put on their bikinis. The woman on my other side looked around her, worried. She told me that she had been stalked by her ex for several years and now worried that he would come here, despite having a ban on visiting. It was quite possible just this day.

Then I could not be quiet anymore. I swept the towel around me and went to the staring men and asked why they chose to be on the women's side today? Are they queer? I also told them that I heard many women on the bridges express their discomfort and inform them of what I read in the brochure.

The young women in bikini and several others joined me and agreed. The men on the bench spread their legs even winder and became noticeably annoyed. "But we're allowed to be here today!" they say in a chorus." (continues)

www.sydsvenskan.se/2018-06-08/grundtanken-ar-fel-kvinnor-diskrimineras-genom-att-man-tar-over-deras-omrade

My OH works in Norway fairly regularly. A number of women in his office have told him they now change and shower at home after using the local gym, due to its policy of allowing men into the previously single sex women's changing room.
It only takes one creepy man to make a lot of women change their behaviour.
(In case anyone is thinking 'why would random female colleagues strike up such a conversation with a male colleague' it is because the employees have recently had 'inclusiveness' training so it has been a bit of a common topic of conversation)
And he uses an 'adult human female' logo pen

There are males who also may need private space - facilities should always include some. 'Inclusive' should mean thinking about the needs of people with specific issues, not lumping everyone in together ... that just leads to self-exclusion.

Of course.

Yes that’s it bernard. Transpeople being made to move out of their bathrooms is wrong. I can see how that has lead to many thinking “ok, I can use the other one since that is how I identify” when actually they should be thinking “hang on! No, I’m allowed to be here. I’m not leaving”

As women have always said, transwomen are not womens problem to accommodate. They are still men.

I’m thinking of a new sticker campaign that empowers transpeople to exercise their right to use their legally entitled changing room

This is a great idea

Stickers reminding males who feel compelled to comply with feminine stereotypes that they are as entitled to use male spaces as any other male

• I understand that some female transpeople may want private individual changing space. That option should always be available, many females need this.*

There are males who also may need private space - facilities should always include some. 'Inclusive' should mean thinking about the needs of people with specific issues, not lumping everyone in together ... that just leads to self-exclusion.
**
Erishkigal - my google search found the MN thread too:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3276075-Sweden-historical-open-air-bath-removes-sex-barriers-for-queer-day-women-driven-home-by-ogling-men

I’m thinking of a new sticker campaign that empowers transpeople to exercise their right to use their legally entitled changing room.

so there is obviously a problem there that needs men like larrygrylls, who doesn't mind who he changes with, to make it clear they won't tolerate that sort of behaviour towards TW and that TW will be as safe as any other man in male changing rooms.

definitely!

We need men saying to transwomen “you don’t need my permission to be here, it doesn’t matter what I think of you, you are entitled to be here. This is your changing room and I will defend your right to be here.”

If all changing rooms became unisex more and more women would shower at home. Eventually only men would use them so unisex wouldn't mean anything any more. Maybe men would ogle less, but it's unlikely, and even if most men didn't there will always be creeps and weirdos, and single sex spaces help keep them at Bay. Unisex spaces is an open invitation.

There is no progressive utopian society where women are not subjected to misogyny and harassment.
I can't recall who said it but it has always rung true for me - left wing men see women as public property and right wing men see women as private property.