Times article - Men ‘should accept trans women in changing rooms’

I regularly swim at four different pools (council pools in N Ireland) and all have mixed showers, usually right at the side of the pool. There are very clear signs up saying that swimwear must be worn at all times though.

the showers are unisex

This gave me a double-take but then I remembered that it's the same, too, in my local swimming pool, also in Ireland. I was thinking of the Germany-everyone-strip-naked model, but they are just quick showers where everyone keeps their swimsuit on.
I assume that's what you mean?
I've also been to a private pool in a hotel, and there the facilities are single sex. It is also of course much quieter. There was just me and a man with his two kids.

I’m in Ireland, our gym/swimming pool changing rooms are unisex. We have individual cubicles and family rooms but the showers are unisex

DecomposingComposers Even though the risk to men is not the same, men and boys have the same right to privacy and dignity as we do. If you are female and wish to externalise the sex stereotypes associated with the male sex all the way up to and inxluding artificially augmenting your female body via cross sex hormones or have radical cosmetic surgeries to construct a simulacrum of a male body, that still doesn't make them men.

However females with such severe gender dysphoria that they go down the medical route typically do not wish to expose their bodies to anybody, neither males nor females. If they pass - and many more medically transitioned females pass than males because testosterone is a hell of a drug - they may still not seek to strip naked in front of males because far fewer females who identify as trans have phalloplasty than the other way around.

That's because this operation typically has a lower chance of success and carries greater risk. Females have died as a consequence of this operation, others struggle to live with the botched results.

The prevalence of such females is also much smaller than that of males, about 1 in 34,000 females have such severe gender dysphoria that they go down the medical route and a tiny percentage of them chose to have phalloplasty. (This is for adults. With ROGD and the affirmation model the numbers for juveniles are still unclear).

Female crossdressers for sexual gratification are also extremely rare, heterosexual or bisexual AAPs even rarer. So there are - by some magnitude - far fewer females who may convincingly present as male enough that their presence in a female-only changing room may alarm the other women and girls and even fewer who would get off on using the men's. (Although judging from what females who identify as trans actually say about their attitude towards their bodies, most would use a third space if provided.) And it's not like this is a novel problem - masculine looking or presenting women are frequently in this situation and know how to diffuse it.

So to answer your question, such females, if they don't wish to use a female-only facility so as not to alarm the females using it, will self-exclude from female-only spaces. They do not necessarily then use the men's, at least not until they pass undetected (which in the case of open plan changing rooms is highly unlikely) and look for alternate arrangements.

AlunWynsKnee

Well I know it isn't acceptable but somewhere along the line compromise has to be made doesn't it? I assume that TRAs also don't want TW in the mens or TM in the womens either so they won't be happy with that solution either.

Decomposing that's the third space argument. That's not acceptable to a TRA position.

What if I think I'm your lizard overlord for scientific reasons yet to be discovered? Do you bow down to me or think I've gone a bit Icke?

Presumably they will be hell bent on using the gents in that case.

Can you not conceive of some trans men who pass really well but not well enough that they pass in the men's? So look male in the female changing rooms but don't pass well enough to go into the mens?

I honestly think that a lot of women would be very uncomfortable with a person that they perceived as male being in the changing rooms. And I never see this being spoken about and I do understand why, because if we say that TM should go into the mens then it follows that TW go into the womens and I understand all the issues around that. I just don't think it is as simple as TM come into the womens. For me, that will feel like, yes for privacy not safety, that it is a man there.

What if they genuinely think they're female for scientific reasons yet to be discovered,

They can think what they like!

Strewth. This is ridiculous.

How do you know they are female? Many trans men pass really well.

Presumably they will be hell bent on using the gents in that case.

Otherwise they need to get used to being challenged.

Belgian you seem to be trying to make some curious juxtapositions between trans, race and sexuality this evening.

I wonder what you’re getting at?

How does one "aggressively assert their sexual attraction to their own sex"?
By refusing to have lesbian sex with a male? Is this something to do with the cotton ceiling?

What if they genuinely think they're female for scientific reasons yet to be discovered, just like some people aggressively assert their sexual attraction to their own sex?

There are some pretty horrid TRAs but I don't think it's fair to paint every individual with steadfast GD this way. In fact, I was told I was being offensive earlier for stating that many people on here view TW as 'deviant' but I think your post proves my point.

I wasn't talking about people with gender dysphoria. I addressed those people further down in my post. I don't believe for a second that the aggressive TRAs of which you speak have got gender dysphoria, because if they did genuinely believe themselves to be women then they would be more sympathetic towards actual women.

Although I think many on here would suggest that you can't tell a good man from a bad man, so maybe I should treat every ethnic male I meet as the greater risk they statistically pose to my wellbeing...?

again you refuse to hear and refuse to see that the issue is about dignity and privacy and the right to women's self determination. Trans women are not women.

You don't seem half so interested ( not even at all) in trans men, and the issues around young lesbians & gay men, and children.

The public verdict is seemingly still out on self-id. I personally fully understand the risks, yet I'm probably prepared to give it a try as I don't want to assume every TW is a predator. I don't assume every black man is a knife wielding thug so why would I assume the same of TW?

The public are not even aware of the issues around self ID. It is thanks to some of the many women ( & men) here, and elsewhere that they are now beginning to.

Defining what makes a woman is not your gift, as far as I'm concerned - and neither is it your right to impose on women that which they don't feel comfortable or safe with; nor that which they have fought long and hard to achieve.

I say that if what really matters to trans people is their safety, then they should start actively campaigning for third spaces. That, as far as I can see, is the only solution that protects everyone's rights, and assures the safety and dignity of all.

Your continued conflation of issues around race and transgenderism is not not only futile, but transparently revealing.

What if they genuinely think they're female for scientific reasons yet to be discovered

so what?

really, I know it sounds mean, but brace yourself, you're on FWR and we don't all perform female socialisation all the time here.

Men are men. full stop, the end. Unless you can see into people's souls a la Layla Moran, that's really all there is to it. you can't tell the good men from the bad men until one of them does something bad.

what's your solution that renders sex segregation in a small number of very specific circumstances to protect the privacy and dignity of everyone and the safety of women unnecessary?

I've certainly been fooled by pics of transmen (rugby player I think it was).

Men who aggressively assert themselves to be women are exactly the men that women need to avoid.

What if they genuinely think they're female for scientific reasons yet to be discovered, just like some people aggressively assert their sexual attraction to their own sex?

There are some pretty horrid TRAs but I don't think it's fair to paint every individual with steadfast GD this way. In fact, I was told I was being offensive earlier for stating that many people on here view TW as 'deviant' but I think your post proves my point.

I've no doubt that a transman who passes, with a beard and tattoos, might make you look twice and provoke an initial feeling of discomfort. But the rationalisation is that you know they are female and therefore do not present a threat

How do you know they are female? Many trans men pass really well.

EmpressLesbianInChair

I think the only solution is a 3rd space yes. But I can't see anywhere being very quick to provide them so it will come down to some people removing themselves I suppose.

I think what would happen is that women will just stay away because that's easier than getting into a confrontation.

But what’s happening at the moment is that actual men are using our changing rooms. And that’s worse. So would you go for the third spaces option?

isabellerossignol-
👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

I wonder if women will confront them though? I don't think that I would. Either because I wouldn't want to offend or for fear of being called a bigot I suppose.

I think what would happen is that women will just stay away because that's easier than getting into a confrontation.