No gym for me

I won't post the appropriate meme which explains why she feels she should throw other women under the bus.

It wouldn't be "if I shit on other women with you, then will you treat me like I have value?" by any chance, would it?

We know what men will do if they are given the green light (and no, obviously NAMALT). Weknowit. There is no 'if' about it

They know it too. It's why so many men opt out of parenting their children and wont take them anywhere .They hide behind these perverts

Remember that pool/spa in Scandinavia (was it Sweden?) that made the changing rooms unisex for a day to make everyone feel included? And, completely predictably, a group of men turned up to leer and ogle and made a lot of women very upset and uncomfortable?

We know what men will do if they are given the green light (and no, obviously NAMALT). We know it. There is no 'if' about it.

It's a clear sign of the misogyny of our culture that women can say until they are blue in the face that this will happen, this is happening, please listen to us. But still we are told is that we are being pathetic, that we have too high an opinion of ourselves if we think anyone wants to sexually harass us, that men would never behave like this, that we are delusional.

"As young women, many of us are still in school and experience or witness sexual harassment from groping to cat calling on a daily basis. It's humiliating and frightening and affects what we wear, where we go, our body image and our confidence to speak out in class. Yet, it's often dismissed as 'banter' or a 'compliment' and we are told we are overreacting or being over sensitive.

People who dismiss the concerns of women and girls as 'precious' are 100% complicit in the culture that allows their rape and sexual harassment.

1 child being raped every day in school

Yeah but yeah but precious

It's nothing to do with being precious. Look up the statistics on assaults against women. Look up what happens.

It's about NEEDING to feel safe. It's about women's rights being eroded and other women standing by and saying it's OK. It's about women being at the bottom of the pile yet again.

People saying the opposite, that it's about being 'precious' just come across as being completely uninformed. Look at the statistics about assaults on women in prisons from trans prisoners. Look at the statistics about assaults in PRIMARY SCHOOL on girls. It's horrifying.

www.tes.com/news/our-kids-were-raped-classmates-dfe-wont-listen

Read that.
And you wonder why women are scared of penises?
But oh no, it's women being 'precious'.

Trans people are not going to hurt you.

It's not about trans people it is about men.

Seems weird how you cannot understand that.

And we come back to the truth of it. No matter how much they say they are women and should access our spaces, they matter more because they are men.

Sadly, that really is the ultimate truth behind this whole fiasco, isn't it? It comes back to the fact that they are men and they think they get to decide. They think they get to tell women what to do, to be kind, to make room for them.

But that game is over. They have gone too far with this. The obvious ridiculousness of the claim that some internal identity that nobody can actually define is enough to override biology -- well. Women won't have it, and I suspect a majority of men as well.

Also incidentally - why don't these women matter as much as transwomen? I don't understand.

Why doesn't every woman matter as much as an MTF trans person? Why are their feelings considered so much more important and serious than ours?

I'll repeat what Jessica said above, with emphasis. I do not fear sexual assault. I DO NOT WANT TO SEE NAKED MEN. I DO NOT WANT TO GET UNDRESSED IN FRONT OF MEN. I do not want to use mixed sex changing rooms.

The poster you're addressing this to really seems to have trouble with respecting women's boundaries. Something she shares with many TRAs. The internalised misogyny she has is subtly different to their absolute contempt for women though. I won't post the appropriate meme which explains why she feels she should throw other women under the bus.

Frankly, you're not hearing the views of ordinary people in here any longer

We are "ordinary people". HTH

There's a common pattern when TRAs and their allies argue on this and related topics, isn't there?

No matter how many times we explain that it's not merely that we fear assault, it's that (a) we do not want to be naked and vulnerable in front of any men (including our male relatives and friends whom we know are not going to assault us), (b) we know that predatory males can and will abuse a self-id system (for that is what these gyms are using now) and (c) this will prevent a fair number of women from ever accessing these facilities again (for a range of real reasons), they stick relentlessly to the same old responses:

• Transwomen are never pervs or rapists
• My friend is trans and is lovely, therefore they all are
• No man will abuse such a system
• You're a prude (even if you have specific trigger reasons)
• Men aren't interested in you
• Women assault too/what about lesbians then?

(Other stock responses are available).

But ask why transwomen can't just use the men's - and it's different for them, apparently, because suddenly - men are nasty.

women of faith, women with cultures and religious beliefs, women of disability, women who hold the belief that people can't change sex, women who want and need privacy from male bodied people, and women who say no to having their boundaries and right to single sex spaces massively overturned and shut down.

Also incidentally - why don't these women matter as much as transwomen? I don't understand.

Incidentally, pointing out that something won't work and is wrong because it massively distresses, disadvantages and excludes large sections of society isn't 'bigoted' or 'prejudiced'. How on earth can it be?

I don't agree with you. I think you are being hugely prejudiced.

That's your prerogative. You're welcome to say that. But not to say it without being disagreed with and other people putting their views: that isn't a reasonable expectation. People disagreeing with you isn't shutting you down, that's what discussion consists of. You might also wish to consider why women here are emphatic, angry and short of patience.

I don't agree with you either, and I think you are being hugely naïve, prejudiced, dismissive of and discriminatory against women, women of faith, women with cultures and religious beliefs, women of disability, women who hold the belief that people can't change sex, women who want and need privacy from male bodied people, and women who say no to having their boundaries and right to single sex spaces massively overturned and shut down.

That's my prerogative. Two way thing. Equality is about everyones needs being met and valued, and solutions found that work for all.

Like moths to a flame.

This isn't an anti-trans echo chamber and neither are the other social media networks and channels Veronica. There are many many women quietly getting on with these discussions out of view, with others occasionally going public and sometimes paying the price for their 'heresy'. I can understand why you might believe them to be isolated spots of dissent given the propensity of TRA & allies to use block lists and forcing silence of women, but you'd be mistaken. We're not silenced here, that's the difference, and it perhaps explains why you're surprised to read us.

Most will be happy to chat with you but you have to do so much better than "omg you called me stupid, YOU'RE STUPID" ffs 😄

This Veronica person is either a man or very, very young and woke, like about 18.
I remember being 18 very well. You think you know everything and you think everyone over 30 is old and stupid...
The hubris is ginormous.
All I can say is: they too will grow up, calm down, and learn common sense.

One last question though: Veronica, how do you feel about men sharing changing rooms and being naked together with 13, 14, 15 year old girls? Be honest, now. Even if it's difficult.

Looking forward to an answer

She wont admit she just doesnt think women have the right to say no to the penis.

PUUUUUULLLLLLLL!

Here comes the sun...

VeronicaDinner
Please tell me where you want people (women, children and men) to go who cannot share toilets and undress in front of the opposite sex for religious / faith reasons? In this world of equality and tolerance and inclusion, I have yet to find any answer to this that is not; "they can go somewhere else"

Looking forward to an answer.

And that light is passing quietly from hand to hand amongst all the lurkers.

When one can see that us shining a light on this poisonous ideology prevents it from succeeding and when one has identified that the light is coming from here, where we show women not just the light but also how to pass it on so that others can shine it into every corner, only then it makes sense to come here and try to persuade us to switch the light off.

Nailed it CharleyParley. Absolutely nailed it.