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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Maya Forstater

689 replies

DianeBrewster · 05/05/2019 09:40

MN have deleted the thread started by Maya - who lost her job for speaking up for women- because it talks about her crowdfunding for legal costs

Here is today's times article on the case https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tax-expert-fired-for-saying-trans-women-aren-t-women-tpqgnm9vj?shareToken=3f12f5cae61c02fd41040eb816fd37b4&wgu=2705255426441557045162977940f0d76fa1&wgexpiry=1564821162&utmmsource=planit&utmmedium=affiliate&utmm_content=22278

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CriticalCondition · 05/05/2019 15:06

De-lurking to add my pledge of support here.
I'll continue to do so with words and deeds.
The level of support Maya has is huge.

This case is so important.

niceberg · 05/05/2019 15:06

Jessica it sure is!

OvaHere · 05/05/2019 14:56

I'm so heartened by the response and support to something that may have relevance to this thread.

I hope this gives you extra courage to fight your corner Maya.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 05/05/2019 14:46

There's a lot to be said, I think, for moving the protected characteristic of "gender reassignment" under the "religion" category. I think it could solve a lot of problems?

I would argue vehemently however that there is a significant difference between belief and observable fact. I don't think saying that transwomen are male is a belief, it is an observable fact, and it's rather concerning when observable facts become unmentionable.

This case will be very interesting for all sorts of reasons, and I very much hope that it goes the right way.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 05/05/2019 14:34

The thing we can’t talk about is looking amazing and reflects overwhelming support.

R0wantrees · 05/05/2019 14:25

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1124831761706508288

“Courage calls to courage everywhere, and its voice cannot be denied.” Millicent Fawcett

Maya Forstater
EverardDigby · 05/05/2019 14:23

Just wanted to add my thanks Maya for doing this for all of us. Happy to be able to contribute my little bit Wink. When I looked at The Times earlier all the comments were in your favour.

justicewomen · 05/05/2019 14:09

Old Crone
Yes it was -certainly feels very comparable. Maya writing of the report and her pattern of tweeting in her own name (together with having been photographed holding relevant banners) suggests she " acts upon those views in the way in which (s)he leads his life. In my judgment, (her)his belief goes beyond a mere opinion."

R0wantrees · 05/05/2019 14:06

From the Times article in OP:

Forstater said: “I support transgender people’s human rights and I believe that trans people are vulnerable, but no one group should overrerule others. I lost my job for speaking up about women’s rights, in a careful way and in a tone of ordinary discussion and disagreement. I worked for a think tank and I thought you ought to be able to think and talk about things. I found out I was wrong about that.”

She is backed by Index on Censorship, whose director, Jodie Ginsberg, said: “From what I have read of her writing, I cannot see that Maya has done anything wrong other than express an opinion that many feminists share — that there should be a public and open debate about the distinction between sex and gender.”

Hard to see how any fair minded person wouldn't be supportive of such a position & utterly baffling how others are enabled in
their attempts to stifle support.

Thank you Maya for all you've done to challenge sexist stereotypes & free children from restrictive gendered expectations & for standing up against those who would censor & attempt to control discussion about challenges to important women's rights & Safeguarding frameworks.

I will be supporting you in as many ways as I can.
Flowers

OldCrone · 05/05/2019 13:58

From the link in my last post:

Grainger Plc applied for Mr Nicholson’s claim under the Employment Equality (Religion and Belief) Regulations to be struck out. It alleged that his views on climate change and the environment could not amount to a philosophical belief because they were based on fact and science. However, the original Employment Judge Sneath found that: "The Claimant has certain views about climate change and acts upon those views in the way in which he leads his life. In my judgment, his belief goes beyond a mere opinion."

TheBullshitGoesOn · 05/05/2019 13:56

Something I never thought I'd say, but...

Good work DM for including examples of Maya's 'offensive' tweets so prominently in the article.

Genderfreelass · 05/05/2019 13:54

Thank you Maya for your bravery, this is such a significant case.

Good link to WPUK

"Freedom of belief extends beyond the right to religious practice and incorporates the right to hold and to express deeply held beliefs."

I feel JN is right that gender is a belief. The GRA should be scrapped and trans people protected under article 9. Equally GC people who do not share the same belief should be protected under article 9.

OldCrone · 05/05/2019 13:53

Is this the environmentalism case you mentioned on the other thread, justicewomen?

www.bindmans.com/news/environmentalists-are-protected-by-uk-discrimination-law-appeal-tribunal-decides

borntobequiet · 05/05/2019 13:50

Getting that thread deleted was a spectacular own goal imo.

Rollercoasteryears · 05/05/2019 13:41

Nothing major to add but just wanted to come on and add my support @firedmaya

SophoclesTheFox · 05/05/2019 13:22

Solidarity, firedmaya. Anytime you need a boost or a break from people telling you your wrong think is hateful, drop in here for a fix of women supporting women. We’ve got a lot of that here and it’s magnificent.

ILoveMyNewRing · 05/05/2019 13:19

@FiredMaya - thank you for bringing this case

HerFemaleness · 05/05/2019 13:18

''Women are denied the ability to participate equally in society because of our biological sex, not our identity. We cannot protect rights without the ability to name the people who need protection.''

Very well put.

LangCleg · 05/05/2019 13:14

Might also try to drag @anyabike in here to meet you

Yes, please! I notice from various recent tweets that she has already been coercively assigned a connection with apparently malodorous MNers, so she may as well have one in that vanishing world of material reality!

Bluestitch · 05/05/2019 13:11

Stuff like that will just help get this thread removed.

S1naidSucks · 05/05/2019 13:10

You’re very welcome Maya. We need more brave women like you. I hope you’re not getting too much hate online. Just be careful that you have all your passwords, etc locked down safely. There are bad people out there, but hopefully you’ll get comfort that the support is overwhelmingly in your favour. 💐

S1naidSucks · 05/05/2019 13:08

I love random numbers 22820

FiredMaya · 05/05/2019 13:08

Thanks for all the support. I am choked.

I will come back and read the whole thread when it has all calmed down (so please don't get this one zapped!)

Will answer give answers to questions as far as I can - although obviously there are limits on what I can say at this point. Might also try to drag @anyabike in here to meet you Grin

Not sure if anyone has linked to this already (and you may have read it before) but Julian Norman in the WPUK/ House of Lords thing talked about the idea of gender identity as a protected belief/lack or belief, which is what my case is about womansplaceuk.org/julian-norman-in-house-of-lords/

merrymouse · 05/05/2019 13:03

“You stated that a man’s internal feeling that he is a woman has no basis in material reality. A lot of people would find that offensive and exclusionary.”

How far are we willing to roll back women's rights so not to offend transpeople?

I find this whole thing terrifying.

Until 1990 - 3 years before the end of apartheid in South Africa - there were parts of Europe where women were still denied the right to vote in local elections. Switzerland didn't allow women to vote in federal elections till 1971. Nobody cared if they felt female.

Countries that force women to cover their heads in public don't make exceptions for women who claim to be 'deminonbinary'.

Women aren't less likely to become pregnant through unprotected heterosexual sex if they don't identify as female.

Women are denied the ability to participate equally in society because of our biological sex, not our identity. We cannot protect rights without the ability to name the people who need protection.

It's the same for any other protected characteristic. They are required because the characteristic intrinsically limits the practical ability to access human rights (e.g. elderly people may not have the ability to work therefore need pensions, a disability may reduce access to transport therefore buses must make special provisions); and because people suffer discrimination as a result of possessing that characteristic, regardless of their identity.

Bhutan has laws against sexual acts, not people with blue hair who go on Pride marches.

If it were possible to identify out of having a protected characteristic they wouldn't be necessary.

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