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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Really good article re Caster Semenya outcome

67 replies

Raylas · 04/05/2019 08:47

Apologies if already posted somewhere, couldn't find it. Really worth a read though.

quillette.com/2019/05/03/a-victory-for-female-athletes-everywhere/

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Raylas · 04/05/2019 10:06

Hi Clare, I follow you on twitter and find your posts so useful and eye opening. I've been interested in your feelings around this. I see the conflation must be frustrating and when TRAs use intersex people to further their agenda it's pretty much never in good faith.

I wouldn't say she's less of a woman or should be ridiculed or othered. But the facts remain regarding her testosterone levels. Am I right that some intersex conditions testosterone isn't processed at all? So in that case it's different. Is it hard to have intersex conditions lumped together? Some intersex athletes don't look unambiguously female. I've thought that for a long time. I recognise outward appearances depend on the specific case.

I guess it's unfortunate that this particular case is relevant to/overlaps with the current trans discussion but it's hard for it not to. I don't want anyone to feel ridiculed or ashamed for what they are... I just think sports particularly needs to have biological based boundaries which affects both some intersex and all trans athletes. That fact is certainly no reason to feel nothing but empathy for people with intersex conditions and I certainly feel that for Semenya. But hard as it is her likely distress doesn't mean the floodgates should be opened, difficult and sad as that might be for her.

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Lordamighty · 04/05/2019 10:05

I don’t understand why the IAAF haven’t applied these new rules across all track & field events. All that is going to happen is that CS is going to move up to the 5000m. CS has no intention of taking testosterone reducing meds “hell no” was the reply when asked the question.
CS has every intention of continuing to enter women’s races.

Raylas · 04/05/2019 09:54

CarolDanvers exactly the same here.

I feel sympathetic in terms of yes she probably didn't know initially, and her whole sense of self probably rests on what a superb athlete she is, certainly she has likely worked as hard as other athletes, trained to ridiculous levels etc and I suppose the question marks over her testosterone level probably feel like all of that hard work and dedication is entirely negated. No doubt it would be frustrating to feel like your athleticism is being pinned entirely to your T if you feel you've worked hard to achieve what you've achieved too. But ultimately, even if she didn't know, she wasn't competing fairly and as pp have said at the point you do know that, you should step down, soul destroying as it would likely be.

I'm concerned that the emphasis on testosterone risks the fact that male puberty confers advantages is lost. I can imagine a future where everyone concedes testosterone is important so trans athletes suppress their levels - but continue to do well due to the biological advantages of a testosterone fuelled puberty, at which point their success is used by activists to show "see, T doesn't mean anything". I need to read up more on the lifetime effects of T and how much these are diminished by suppressing it.

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ClareCAIS · 04/05/2019 09:53

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CarolDanvers · 04/05/2019 09:42

I’ve thought this all along. I couldn’t understand the up in arms outrage on Caster’s behalf but thought I must be missing something so kept quiet.

LangCleg · 04/05/2019 09:40

It's a great article because it points the finger directly at the atrocious news reporting which has actively obscured issues, leading to the debilitation of women's sport, the encouraging of corrupt sports authorities to further debase it, and completely misinformed the public.

I personally fail to see any circumstances under which it is reasonable for an XY human being who has undergone a virilising male puberty to be allowed to compete in any women's category in any sport.

I have limited sympathy for Semenya: I don't think healthy adults should be forced to medicate to compete (a ban is better than that) but, on the other hand, Semenya and all sports bodies have known Semenya's true status as an XY human being benefiting from virilising male puberty since at least 2009. The "graceful" thing to have done would have been to quietly retire from women's sport.

Joisanofthedales · 04/05/2019 09:33

Good article. Thank you for posting. Some of the comments were a bit unpleasant though.

Andoffwegoagain · 04/05/2019 09:30

I have tremendous sympathy for Caster. As an intersex person she may not have been fully aware of it all at the start. I hope she is able to find a way to continue as an athlete fairly. However, it’s so clear from reading this article and looking at the facts that it simply isn’t possible to have female identifying people with high testosterone competing in women’s events. To claim otherwise is just calling the sun, the moon. It doesn’t fit with our current societal trans rhetoric but is the truth.

mummysandwich · 04/05/2019 09:25

Thanks for sharing! Especially useful to be able to refute the 'natural advantage like being tall' argument.

CardsforKittens · 04/05/2019 09:21

Superb article. Thanks so much for sharing.

Raylas · 04/05/2019 09:20

Takes apart the argument not article. How I wish we could edit.

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Raylas · 04/05/2019 09:20

My default setting has also been one of sympathy, until now. I think it's important this was bought to CAS so I'm glad it did, but I now feel a bit different about Semenya and the other 46, XY athletes who feel they have a right to continue to compete. Why would you want to win when you have a plain biological advantage over other competitors? I thought the pride of being a professional athlete was winning on a level playing field.

I also like how the author takes apart the article that high T is no different from the other biological advantages elite athletes have. Hopefully these two screenshots show in the right order.

Really good article re Caster Semenya outcome
Really good article re Caster Semenya outcome
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katienana · 04/05/2019 09:13

Great article

OhHolyJesus · 04/05/2019 09:06

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Laterthanyouthink · 04/05/2019 09:04

Yes that article says it all really and should be impossible to argue against.

Raylas · 04/05/2019 08:52

From the article - arrows point to lifetime bests for three elite female 400m athletes. All other blue dots are times ran by elite AND non-elite male runners in 2017. You simply can't outrun biological advantage. The very best women can be beaten by fairly good men.

Really good article re Caster Semenya outcome
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Raylas · 04/05/2019 08:48

Urgh here it is as a clicky link

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