Really good article re Caster Semenya outcome

www.amazon.co.uk/Galileos-Middle-Finger-Heretics-Activists/dp/0143108115?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

If anyone wants to read more about the medical practise history of intersex this is a great book. It's a very balanced read.

I understand after reading this just how much the sex stereotypes of traditional societies will force decisions about non typical bodies and the struggle to overcome the physical damage imposed by this continues. It does provide context for what is happening here and how identity is being misused and politicised.

I can recommend the book, it's a good read.

Caroline Hirons? Insisting Caster is a woman and hassling someone like Sharron who actually knows what she’s talking about. Stick to flogging overpriced unnecessary beauty crap and stop with your misogyny, remember when Caroline retweeted Stephanie Hayden?

mobile.twitter.com/CarolineHirons/status/1124675648595873792

I have no choice but to be recognised as female by anyone with eyes and ears - although from reading much of what people are saying over the last few days, I’ve become increasingly aware that if we are open about our medical conditions, we are going to be stigmatised as non-women, othered & ridiculed by many

ClairCAIS - I really don't see why you are taking that from what people have been saying - at least on the MN threads. Don't you find it heartening that people a) people understand the difference between PAIS and CAIS and hence would have no issues thinking of you as a woman and b) couldn't give a toss how CS wants to live/present/look/be in her private life - irrespective of what chromosomes she has. She would be equally accepted if she was presenting as a man or a woman or neither.

I don''t think anyone is stigmatising or othering her (or you) - they are just saying she shouldn't be competing against XX females with the biological advantage she has, while we have sex segregated sports at least. It's competing against people that haven't benefited from male puberty like her that people think is unfair.

Sharron Davies is being given a really hard time about this on Twitter. Caroline Hirons is one of the people involved in giving her that hard time too.

In regards to only certain categories of athletics. IAAF had to suspend its previous regulations which meant testosterone levels had to be under 10nmols when Dutee Chand brought a case. In order for the IAAF to reinstate its regulations it was asked to produce a study. Since the athletes in question gravitate around 400m to mile I suspect it was easier to provide data on those events. IAAF do intend to extend to all events but might need further data.

Is an XY athlete with one of the more severe DSD conditions technically a male with a female gender identity and legal sex? Their gender identity has been more socialised in than many later transitioning trans people as they were assumed female at birth.

Well, I think this is complicated as sometimes it is not so much they are assumed female at birth but they are assumed “not fully male”.

In the now closed Caster thread Barracker posted some links (in last two pages) of men who had XY DSDs and in a couple cases their parents were pressured to “call them girls” because their external male genitals were not “normally” formed. So, no one really believed they were girls, they just didn’t consider them “fully boys” and it was “easier”. Often these boys who are told girls reject that “imposition” of sex and when the truth is finally revealed it all “comes together”.

For a non XY DSD issue, where everyone went along with the farce of them being a girl knowing it was a boy, see the case of David Reimer.

I don't think healthy adults should be forced to medicate to compete (a ban is better than that)

But they aren’t forced to. They have the following choices:

1. Lower testosterone and remain competing against women in the events the regulations are applicable to;

1. Not lower testosterone and compete against women in the events the regulations are not applicable to;

1. Not lower testosterone and compete against men in any event;

1. Not lower testosterone and not compete at all.

Why would you want to win when you have a plain biological advantage over other competitors? I thought the pride of being a professional athlete was winning on a level playing field.

Well, the article indicates it as well as knowledge about what being an elite athlete can bring: fame, wealth, opportunity. Why wouldn’t these athletes who know they would be mediocre against men compete against women - as they are allowed to - where they know they can win. Once you get to that stage of the game, there is far more than ribbons for the winners.

The reporting on this has certainly been very poor. Barely any of the mainstream press have even memtioned the Y chromosome issue at all.

Some fool in reply to Gary Linekers tweet said, if she was a man she would be revered Except, no, if she was correctly identified as a male at birth she would not be a pro athlete at all.

Great article thank for sharing. I’ve shared on fb. It’s infuritating how this whole thing has been reported, especially now we know for sure that at least 2 of the 3 intersex athletes who won medals in Rio would not be eligible now. 3rd athlete Margaret Wambui has not confirmed if this ruling affects her or not.
I’m glad the article mentioned Lynsey Sharp too - she’s a good example of someone who has lost out majorly due to running against XY athletes

Reading that makes me think this case is more linked to transgenderism than I realised.

Is an XY athlete with one of the more severe DSD conditions technically a male with a female gender identity and legal sex? Their gender identity has been more socialised in than many later transitioning trans people as they were assumed female at birth. They may have some feminised aspects to their body which are natural rather than caused by artificial hormones or surgery. If we are going to insist on binary sex characterisation though this person is male.

No sex is not a spectrum, the vast majority of people are clearly male or female with no question about it, however gender non conforming they may be and whatever their identity.

But I feel like we may need to acknowledge that certain extremely rare conditions do form exceptions to the binary. For this extremely rare exception, maybe is it most appropriate to say what sex you are deemed to be or whether you prefer to just deem yourself "intersex" is decided in consultation with your doctor based on your own sense of identity. I'm really unsure what the best way to think of this is to not offend anyone with these conditions but also not to buy into identity politics or sex as a spectrum.

Sports need to decide what they need to do to function re eligibility. That's a separate issue, maybe more akin to Paralympics categories.

Gary Lineker has tweeted it

It’s a great article. I have huge sympathy for anyone affected by the CAS ruling, who may have been hoping for a different outcome and can only imagine the challenges of living with a DSD. Nor would I be crass enough to conflate DSDs with any of the identities under than trans umbrella.

I simply don’t believe that anyone with a Y chromosome should compete in elite women’s sport.

Why isn't SRY used instead of T levels? Is testosterone cheaper to test for or something? Very much agree with the "woman is not a disabled man" comment- physically or chemically castrating a man does not make him a biological woman.

I have no choice but to be recognised as female by anyone with eyes and ears - although from reading much of what people are saying over the last few days, I’ve become increasingly aware that if we are open about our medical conditions, we are going to be stigmatised as non-women, othered & ridiculed by many

for you, Claire. I am sorry it's all been so painful for you.

If we had had accurate reporting from the get go, perhaps it wouldn't have been so bad. And the public may have got a better and more accurate understanding of DSDs, which would have helped everyone - not just with regard to sport.

Lordamighty

"I don’t understand why the IAAF haven’t applied these new rules across all track & field events. All that is going to happen is that CS is going to move up to the 5000m. CS has no intention of taking testosterone reducing meds “hell no” was the reply when asked the question.
CS has every intention of continuing to enter women’s races."

This is also my view, because as far as I can see it is logical. The IAAF IMHO have messed up again, the mainstream media are not reporting the full facts - 46 XY DSD.
Last night in the 800m, what we saw from CS was pure defiance, her 3rd fastest ever time, the fastest this year (and faster than last year) and a huge winning margin.
If you take CS's 1,500m best, (around 4mins), add on 20secs and multiply by 3.333, you get a time of 14m 30s for 5,000m.

The other events thing is a sop. I suspect if they didn't let Semenya compete at all, there would be a push to have their records overturned.

And I'd forgotten about Obama and his misguided enthusiasm for gender

Thank you for sharing that.

Surely the girls in Connecticut could argue that allowing boys to compete against them is in contravention of Title IX?

Not since Obama changed it to gender.

I didn't realise she could compete in other events. That's bizarre.

Yes. I don’t understand how someone’s sex can change depending on the distance they are running.

Is it some strange Lorentz transformation Einstein failed to account for?

Just to be clear as I've seen this confusion repeated a few times on here in the last few days - ClareCAIS on MN is not MRKHVoice (who is Claire with an I) on Twitter. They are different people (with different DSDs).

I think that's s a really good article. And no, intersex and transgender are not the same thing at all but we have to acknowledge that TRAs are exploiting of athletes DSDs that give a physical advantage to argue they should also be able to compete against women with no artificial reduction in their T levels.

That's why this ruling is so important.

I found the bit about Title IX in the US really interesting:
“Title IX … requires us to invest in male and female athletes equally. Title IX prohibits discrimination on the basis of sex, in any education program or activity receiving federal financial assistance"

Surely the girls in Connecticut could argue that allowing boys to compete against them is in contravention of Title IX?

I still think testosterone is being treated as if it is sex instead of a proxy for sex.

Testosterone plays a huge role in making men stronger and faster but reducing testosterone does not make someone a woman.

A woman is not a man with something taken away. A woman is not a disabled man.

And a woman with high testosterone is not a man. You don’t become a man because your testosterone levels are elevated because, for instance, you have a testosterone-increasing cancer.

It’s the Y chromosome, or more specifically the SRY gene, that matters.

ClareCAIS it must be incredibly hard to read. I think this is a very specific area where there is conflation between the two since women’s athletics relies on athletes not having male advantages.

I think most women whether trans affirming or the most gender critical, would fully acknowledge that it is an entirely different thing to be born with intersex conditions and raised female than to be a biological male who has chosen to identify as female. Even if in this specific scenario of sports the two situations are being lumped together.

Do you have anything more you want to say about it? Your perspective is invaluable.