Legalised prostitution in Germany: from "Paradise" to hell.

Another part of the prostitution industry that maybe is forgotton...the sugar daddy scene, which many female students turn to for financial support and are manipulated and exploited. Cam across this interview with a daddy very insightful
Also read recently about a woman who travels free and strangers pay...www.misstravel.com/ advertised as an innocent dating/ travel website...hmmm
get-a-wingman.com/this-woman-dates-rich-men-and-travels-the-world-for-free/ However it is presented, these things are still ways to exploit women guised as ;consenting adults'. Some might argue it is the savvy women exploiting the men....

Thanks, I'll check out Toytown and reddit.

Germans whinge about lack of decent bread rather then lack of Marmite in my experience :)

You could try Reddit perhaps. It can be a bit difficult to search for specific subreddits but there is one for everything. r/europe is entertaining.

Thanks lamaha

I was more looking for a forum where Germans or residents in Germany discuss politics. The forum I used to be on was once really good for that, very different to MN, but it was a great way of keeping an eye on political and social opinions of people in Germany and how they change. It changed massively with the refugee crisis and Cologne and now you can’t have a discussion there at all anymore, people are just shouting Nazi or Gutmensch at each other, respectively. I finally flounced when a tiff about cherry picking scientific evidence descended into someone (a fervent homeopathy supporter and anti-vaxxer) started to sling all her grievances against me from the past 10 years at me coincided with a real life tragedy in my immediate neighbourhood and I just walked away. She probably thinks she won but I don’t care.
I occasionally go back and have a look to see if anything has changed but it seems that a large number of regular posters has left and now it is just really mundane stuff that gets posted. I do know from very few previous discussions that there are basically no gendercritical posters there. There is one (since I left) and she gets called a Nazi whenever she posts something gender critical. I sometimes read the comment sections in Spiegel but they frequently don’t allow comment and the format doesn’t really allow a proper discussion. It seems like all public political discourse has vanished and it worries me.

This is the speech from FiLia 2018:
'Patriarchy and Neoliberalism'

Presentation by Inge Kleine
(extract)
"From women's demands for sexual liberation we get led to the rhetorics of “sex work“ and the myth of the “happy hooker“, and to her right to engage in this “profession“ if she so chooses. In Germany, the pro-prostitution side will always remind us of a woman's right to choose her profession, granted in article 12 of our basic law and guaranteed by a supreme court ruling regarding “sex work“ – it is truly encouraging and heart warming how many men are dedicated to the cause and will in no time stand up for women's rights to be in prostitution! This in a country that has one of the lowest rates of women in parliament, in management positions, or in science.

From women's fights for access to paid work and for childcare we get a realignment of pension rights that practically pushes every woman with children who is a single mother into poverty, all in the name of equality, independence, and feminism, and from our struggles to include men in childcare we get the “fathers' rights movement“ which, together with so-called “pick-up artists“ form the worst kind of MRAs (cont.)

filia.org.uk/filia2018/2018/11/3/patriarchy-and-neoliberalism-by-inge-kleine

"About Inge: Feminist who took up activism in 2011 thanks to Nafissatou Diallo – the courageous woman who reported Strauss-Kahn for rape. Teacher in my “civil life” and Girls' Commissioner (Advocate) at my school. Campaigning against sexual and “domestic” violence and against prostitution, against the “fathers' rights” movement and against surrogacy, and taking part in Lesbian activism in Germany. Working from and with KOFRA in Munich (Communication Centre for Women Regarding Their Work and Life Situation), a feminist organisation and place for women to meet, organize, learn and discuss feminist demands and action. Working with other women, networking and bringing women together to shared action, launching and implementing campaigns, co-organizing conferences. Co-founder of Abolition 2014 and Initiative Stop Sexkauf which concentrate on abolishing prostitution. At an earlier period in my life doing literature and gender studies at Munich University and analysing feminity, semantics, female language and spaces in the English Gothic Novel at the end of the 18th century.

Find out more:
Twitter: @IngeReed
www.banishea.wordpress.com
www.abolition2014.blogspot.de
www.kofra.de
www.abolishprostitutionnow.wordpress.com
Articles on German rape laws, rape awareness actions, prostitution, surrogacy, in the Kofra Magazine. (In German). Articles in English on banishea and Abolition 2014.
filia.org.uk/speakers-2018/2018/8/21/inge-kleine

Some info re last years' Filia Conference:

(extract)
"The biggest women’s rights conference, FiLiA, took place this month. Rachel Bell shares how this annual conference motivated her why it is radical, revolutionary and the voice of reason in a world saturated with sexual objectification and male sexual violence (cntinues)

As FiLiA recent tweets inviting BBC Woman’s Hour along (they have never covered the conference) highlight, FiLiA amplifies the voices of women and girls on issues including femicide, abortion rights, immigration, class, equal pay, rape, media, prostitution, race and secularism. The annual conference has platformed hundreds of speakers – grassroots activists risking their lives to help women in danger, NGOs and academics from Afghanistan, South Africa, Sierra Leone, Tanzania, Russia, Norway and more. This year’s speakers include Professor Liz Kelly, Sheila Jeffreys, Sodfa Daaji, Hibo Wardere Kendra Houseman, and Dr Sasha Rackoff, founder of Not Buying It. FiLiA met with women’s groups in Germany to witness the devastation of a legalised system of prostitution, in Argentinia to support women fighting for abortion rights, and in Palestine, Norway and Ireland to understand women’s experience. FiLiA has created an Emerging Female Artist Prize and creative projects bring poetry and art to women in prisons and those who have endured domestic violence. That’s just a taster of its work and reach. "

By attending the annual conference since its inception, I have listened to the stories of women exploited around the world. Many survivors of prostitution have told their harrowing truths of exploitation that begins in childhood. The suffering and courage of the women I have heard at this conference is seismic. Thanks to them, I got my head straight on prostitution, understanding how neo-liberalism and patriarchy leave women in extreme poverty, how foreign migrant women have become trafficked goods for men in the west, why prostitution is a human rights abuse of the most vulnerable, why it completely undermines gender equality. I viewed the vital anti-porn documentary Pornland, and heard the compelling, no-nonsense Gail Dines, founder of Culture Reframed, show how the porn industry grooms boys to get hard on women and girls’ suffering, and ultimately, to become johns. How it take boys’ and men’s humanity, too. I heard from Campaign Against Sex Robots on how human, mutually consenting relations are under threat – and I will never forget the experience of hearing Bolton mum, Gemma Aitchison, who founded Yes Matters to challenge sexual objectification. Gemma’s 16-year-old sister, Sasha Marsden was stabbed 58 times and set alight before being dumped in an alley in what the press described as a ‘sexually motivated, sustained and ferocious attack’ by David Minto. Gemma told us how he referred to Sasha as ‘it’ in court. I had the privilege of listening to Susie Orbach, who showed how the beauty industry – by making profit from making women feel self-conscious, insecure and ashamed of their bodies – is a form of violence against us. Jameela Jamil is bang on. FiLiA is a wonderful hub for making contacts and friends. " (continues)
filia.org.uk/news/2018/10/25/filia-2018-the-biggest-womens-rights-conference-in-europe

I went to the Filia conference in Manchester last year.
Thoroughly recommend it.
Amazing international speakers & (Im pretty sure) there was a really important speech by a woman specifically about the sexual violence against women in Germany.
I will see if I can find a link.

It provided a really clear demonstration of the international issues facing women & enabled me to 'join up many dots' in my understanding and awareness.

Its inspiring to hear from and meet so many women who have been working for so long in different areas.

filia.org.uk/news

Great post Grabthars

Nothing is wasted here. I’ve learned so much from the thread started by the repellent punter and this follow up

There have been a couple of studies which show clearly that what the buyers want is dominance, the feeling of lording it over someone.

Once you realise this the descriptor "paid rape" is almost undeniable. The idea that rape is a crime of passion still dogs every discussion of it, from "well what did she expect dressed like that?" to "aren't you afraid of lesbians attacking you since they fancy women to?" It's all predicated on the idea that rape is a reaction to attraction and lust, rather than power and dominance. Prostitution suffers from the same myth, that men use prostitutes because they're lonely, in need of a human connection, or are capable of loving the women they buy. The fact is that the exchange of money for sex establishes a power differential in 100% of cases. Decriminalising prostitution takes that one step further by contractually ossifying that power divide. It's the power imbalance, not the sex, that punters get off on. Just. Like. Rapists.

Nope, I don't use German sites, my German isn't good enough.

I am German but haven't lived there since 1994. I (skim) read some German media and used to post on a German parenting site (still occassionally check what is going on there) and visit family regularly.
The thing I noticed over the last couple of years is how political discurs has disappeared. I wouldn't actually now know where to go for similar discussions like the ones here on the feminist boards.
Bertie do you know of a site where you can have a proper discussion?

I live in Germany and have two sons. It's awful. I don't want them to think it's normal. I love German culture for the most part but the sexual stuff really bothers me. It creeps into advertising and all sorts. It is considered perfectly normal to have nude or almost nude women as "attractive imagery" for your business. I've seen it for shower installers, building contractors and a fruit distributor among others. The other day I walked past a shop front advertising waterbeds for sale and on the waterbed was a female clothing model dressed in a PVC short dress and placed on the bed as if to say "come hither" - it was so weird and irrelevant.

ProFamilia are a bit of a strange organisation. They run a few KiTas around here (like nursery/daycare) and a friend was saying she'd been baffled by their attitude, they apparently refuse to participate in anything vaguely resembling religion so no Christmas or Easter celebrations. And she felt a lot of the staff were young and newly qualified and wanted to stick much too much to the letter of the guidelines (e.g. the hellish slowness of the official German "settling in period".) rather than looking at the child and making a judgement there.

BTW, a better translation for "Lebenslust" would be passion. Not that it really matters, and I know it wasn't your translation, it was just bothering me.

Great post FermatsTheorem

If we don’t want to criminalise that type of ‘man’ WTF have we become as a society

I've linked to that Telegraph article many many times.

I think we really need to work on turning the spotlight on the men involved.

What sort of a man has sex with a woman who wouldn't consent unless he gave her money?

What sort of a man has sex with a woman under economic duress when he could have a wank?

What sort of a man has sex with a woman under economic duress while still having sex with his wife?

What sort of a man thinks it's okay to buy a woman's body?

What sort of a man writes the vilely misogynistic reviews on Pnet and Awork (see the Invisible Men Project)?

What sort of man thinks it's okay to force financially desperate, addicted or trafficked women to be penetrated in every orifice but reacts with horror when you suggest that if he really believes it's a job like any other, maybe he should try it out for a bit to see what it feels like?

Because we all know what sort of women end up in prostitution - women just like us, barring a few quirks of fate. Women in prostitution are women, deserving of dignity, support, job opportunities, a proper welfare state that supports people not a means of the state punishing them for being poor

It's not the women we need to talk about, it's the men - pimps and punters are fucking scum and we need to keep bringing the conversation back to this.

I would also say that the feminist argument about these things is moral, and it implies a morality of the body and person. If it didn't you could really not argue that it is wrong to impinge people's freedom or reduce them to sexual objects

Allowing the pro- punter lobby to co-opt the word "morality" to be a synonym for "prudish" or "religious prudery" is very dangerous and exactly what they want.

That line of thinking started with Mary Whitehouse - who was the worst possible person to front an anti-porn campaign.

I also think it is very narrow minded to impute that any one opposing prostitution from a conservative and/or religious background must be doing so from questionable motives.

FiLiA is full of gender critical women on the board of directors. Their scope is much wider than self id, but they recognise the threat of males in women's spaces. Ant tra's who think they can harass FiLiA for being "anti-trans" won't get very far.

Please do attend their conference. It's going to be a good one!

I think social /sexual conservatives are coming at it from a morality about the sexual act angle which is definitely not where all of the feminist objections to prostitution are based.

But what does morality about the sex act mean? It was never a random viewpoint, og sex is immoral somehow so we will restrict it in any way we can. It has to do with beliefs about the nature of sex, about how it relates to human dignity and human freedom. Sex has to have a moral value because people have moral value. Things like prostitution were considered immoral because they reduced women to sexual servants, and the existence of prostitution was considered to reduce women's freedom, not extend it.

I would also say that the feminist argument about these things is moral, and it implies a morality of the body and person. If it didn't you could really not argue that it is wrong to impinge people's freedom or reduce them to sexual objects.

Women being bought by men is as old-fashioned as it gets.

And if prostitution was actually about sex for the men, they'd save themselves all that time and expense by just wanking. It's not. There have been a couple of studies (one by Melissa Farley? Not sure. Funny how there aren't many studies of the punters.) which show clearly that what the buyers want is dominance, the feeling of lording it over someone.

There's no more complete lording than forcing sex acts on someone. That's why the brainiacs in the US military used it at Abu Ghraib on men. But it has as much to do with actual sex as force-feeding has to do with a good meal.

Damn right we're going to be "prudish" about that.

Meanwhile right here in the UK you can buythis bookaimed at 4 - 8 year olds:

The reviews of that book are making me spit tin tacks. The one below is particularly vacuous.

"This is the mothering book I've always dreamed of!How Mamas Love Their Babiesshifts our narrow definition of what a mother is, what a mother does, what a mother looks like, and what caring for our babies looks like"--Sarah Sophie Flicker, activist