Rape victims must hand over phone or police won't pursue crime

Mandatorymongoose
There should be done recourse for court raping this way. It's the only way one can label the dispicable way that survivors of these awful sexual assaults are defiled.

No respect, stripped bare and left broken is what help the legal system is. Literally defilers.

I listened to a survivor late last night telling of it not being the rape that caused her PTSD but the court treatment of her through such a distressing process. Genuine horror story.

Mandatorymongoose
That is so awful - and sadly is a very commonplace experience of so many young women. Multiply abused by the very institutions that are meant to protect them.

pickleC the guardian article I posted was about exactly that. The woman who refused to hand over her 'privacy' says this is why...the detailed contact and thoughts with the counsellor, which she could not bear to share with her rapist just so she could secure justice, but, you know, very unlikely

I don't think this is new really. Around 5 years ago my daughter was raped, I posted about it on here at the time. The police took her phone, her new clothes (which they destroyed), she refused counselling at SARC because they would have shared her notes. They went through all her social media, her messages to friends before and after the event, relevant and not. Digital strip search is pretty accurate. It was awful. She was 15. It took a year to get to court, I can't remember how long they had her phone for but long enough to feel a lot like a punishment to a teenager. The person responsible was convicted of a lesser offence in the end (plea bargain).

I can absolutely understand why people are put off reporting. The whole process was horrific and all the way through, DD, who was a child, was treated as though she was to blame, to be punished, she suffered for having the strength to report it. It is an awful awful system in which I have very little faith.

The police requested my counselling notes which were made available to the cps and idk where they are now

That implicit suggestion about police forces being required to replace a phone, from Nicknacky, could solve the problem of impact on communications. I wonder if this new law will include a requirement for forces to do that. No? Goodness, does that mean that possibly all ramifications and implications for ordinary people have not been thought out, and reasonable adjustments will not be made? Gosh, who'd have thought it, knee jerk legislation that will take rights away. From any particular section of the population? Just women. Really building trust here aren;t they.

I have no idea if this is widespread, and not read about it in any coverage, but have also seen a request from the police to pass on disciplinary issues or details of 'sexualised behaviour' on the part of a victim. We were understandably horrified. There was no outline of how this could be defined and we were instead deeply concerned about a young woman who must have been traumatised and how having all her personal details passed over by those who had a duty of care towards her could make her feel. I've heard of cases where this could include counselling notes, though not personally seen that. How would anyone feel having your most personal thoughts on your rape potentially passed onto the defence team?

@TheInebriati

Posted about the benefits issue before i read the thread so x posted with you.

Jessica Eaton has written a blog;

''Reason 5: One guy made a complaint against a woman and the whole fucking system changes but thousands of women suffer injustice and nothing changes for decades''

Reason 6: How come it’s so easy to manipulate innocent victims into handing over their phones but it takes us months or years for police to get hold of the phones of traffickers, rapists and child abusers?

Reason 7: There is nothing in law which states that the police can blackmail you into giving over your phone and you are entitled to representation and protection from crime anyway

victimfocus.wordpress.com/2019/04/29/7-reasons-why-i-dont-support-police-checking-victims-mobile-phones-in-sexual-violence-cases/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

What I find fascinating is that I remember the reporting of the cases collapsing last year due to defence not having info.

All reports I read focused on rape cases that had collapsed, a couple put a foot note that this was an issue across the board not just for rape.

The focus on rape cases angered me as it seemed like totally biased reporting.

And now as a response we have this. Again, rape is focused on. None of the articles I have seen refer to this for other crimes at all. Even though the same problem is there.

So my conclusion

This is to act as a deterrent to women and girls in reporting rape, and that is the intention.

Watched porn?
Exchanged pics?
Seeing lots of men?
Reading steamy stories?

Sorry love you're off poor character no jury will convict you.

This comes after met boss essentially saying she was not intetested in doing anything about 'date rape' as its hard to get a prosecution.

All of this is expensive to investigate and sadly society and authorities don't really give a shit.

Intetesting last night on local news they ate looking for a man who had abducted and raped 2 women. I was surprised. Had they been through their phones properly? And then. Male witness. OHO that's why they're taking out seriously.

All a bit biblical really. Or reminiscent of attitude in counties where women are more or less property.

Working class low income women getting an even rawer deal yet again.

I am intetesting in cut off.

Does the phone need to be present in cases of rape only? Rape with accompanying gbh? Rape with murder? What if the phone can't be found. Assumption is she ditched it as she's lying?

Etc etc

The issue nickynacky is that the fact of losing a phone is going to act as a strong deterrent to a woman on benefits in reporting a rape.

It's quite obvious surely?

If you can't afford to lose your phone there's no point in reporting your rape.

EXACTLY @deepwatersolo

I don't think that the actions of the police should end in the victim of a crime being made destitute and homeless through benefit sanctions. Or dead through not being able to call for help.

So, if a woman has to resort to prostitution because without her phone there are issues with UC payout, that is not the police’s problem, eh? (Yes there are women on this site who went down that road due to botched UC roll out).

What the actual fuck?

(Also: you bet prostituting yourself will sink any chance your rape case might have had...)

have read the entire thread, but as per normal on mumsnet the experiences of a trained sexual offence police officer are rarely welcomed on these threads so I will bow out.

I suppose it depends if you think the system is working for rape victims or not. If you think it is you need to examine your prejudices very carefully.

Is there a petition started somewhere ?

It is worth repeating that this is what happened to a woman when the police confiscated her phone in order to investigate her allegations of domestic abuse - she ended up with no way to summon help and was murdered!
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-42602852

Nicknacky Women shouldnt have to choose between a sanction and justice. Even if the force was to replace the phone many women wont want to take the RISK that they wont and is it even likely with all the cutbacks.

It seems to me as though there is a clash here of real life experience of both the police and misogyny in general, and police procedure which purports to be helpful for the victim.

If it's someone's job to go through your life with a fine tooth comb to find something that the defence can use against you, things like sexual experience, purchasing decisions, social services records, pornography usage, should all be deemed out of bounds. And if the defence is using them, it should also be deemed out of bounds.

It cannot be beyond the wit of the police to ONLY access messages between the victim and the rapist in order to determine circumstance. And confiscate the phone for a day. I mean it's only actually the work of a day. Why would you need to hold onto it for days before, and days afterwards?

Aren't the police, as a cohort, pretty poor when it comes to exploitation of vulnerable people and domestic violence?

It's little wonder that women do not want to give them extra leverage.

And this is not me being dramatic, or hyperbolic. Many women have zero faith in the police when it comes to sex crimes.

Or do you not do simple searches when you go back to the office?

The description of mine was one you really couldn't mix up. It would have brought one hit. That was on google.

But police never did that for me? Why? Because I hadn't made a statement? Then why contact me a month later saying they've him in custody for another crime? Why not show me mugshots at the time. Why contact me a month later?????????? About a different crime???

Why you take a victim's phone is the issue though.

I had no phone contact with either rapist. The first stole my phone, the second one had nothing relevant to the rape. So why take my phone (btw, in the second instance, my phone was not taken off me; in the first instance, the guy had stolen it).

Nicknacky. What do you think about leaving victims completely in the dark about what you know? I refused to give an interview, so I heard nothing until a month later when he had raped someone else. THEN you fucking contact me. You knew exactly who he was from day one. Why pretend you have no clue who it is when your searches would bring up exactly who it is?

Haven't rtft yet.
I was raped age 15 by someone twice my age. I was an immature kid with a crush and he had been texting me (which I now recognise as grooming) for months. While we talked about sexual things, which was all very exciting to love-struck me, when it happened that I actually by chance found myself completely alone with him in a remote place, I was terrified and had zero intention of actually having sex. Sadly he did and it took the best part of ten years for me to accept I was the CHILD and he was the adult who should have known better. I did not report what happened out of shame. If I had had to hand my phone over, the police would have taken one look at those messages and assumed I was lying.
Whoever makes up these laws has NO fucking idea how complex rape is and the lasting damage it can do to victims. He's dead now anyway and I'm glad.

Again, a nice appeal to the authority of your position as a trained sexual offence police officer there, but you'll have to forgive me being unimpressed when you say in an earlier post that you dont see why it would be considered sexist to remove a woman's phone when she is a victim of rape given everything we've discussed on the thread. Like I said, not especially reassuring, given your position.