Rape victims must hand over phone or police won't pursue crime

I imagine so, as they were challenging it. I haven't read the CPS guidance. I thought it was Sisters Uncut but it might have been another similar group.

I posted a comment on a very similar thread to this quite a while ago, questioning what we would prefer happen?

Women give a statement with their version on events. The man disagrees. How (other than just accepting the woman’s statement as the truth) do we want police to ‘investigate’ this? What sort of investigation do we deem appropriate?

Yes it should be handled sensitively and with dignity but honestly, having been in that situation myself I don’t see how this process could ever feel sensitive or dignified. Nothing about that time in your life feels that way.

So if they can’t ask for your phone, or your clothes, and there no (or an unreliable) witness. Then what do we want them to do?

The legal system has to be a two way street, they can’t just believe you because you’re a woman because some women (for a multitude of reasons) do lie. The legal system fails people in many aspects beyond sexual assault too. But as of yet nobody has a better alternative.

(Personally I think that we’ll eventually all end up wearing the human equivalent of dashcams)

In response to my comment on the earlier thread one poster replied something along the lines of ‘Well I’d rather a few innocent men be punished than lots of guilty ones get away with it’ - This is dangerous- VERY dangerous but unless we fix the system (rather than just poking holes in it) then its where we’re heading!

The Guardian ran a feature on it last year, Sawdustformypony and SistersUncut actually prioritised women for once with a campaign about it earlier this year.

Just had a look at SistersUncut website and searched for 'communications' and 'phones' but there were no relevant results. Did they take issue with the CPS guidance to your knowledge ?

The Guardian ran a feature on it last year, Sawdustformypony and SistersUncut actually prioritised women for once with a campaign about it earlier this year.

SocFem19 It does happen for other crimes. The request isn't just for Rape, it's for all victims of crime.

Plus noone is required to hand over their phone.

It seems that media reporting maybe due to this guidance from the CPS
which was published last year, July 2018. Quiet day on the news desk ?

www.cps.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/legal_guidance/Disclosure-reasonable-lines-of-enquiry-and-communications-evidence.pdf

I know there have been cases where the victim has been found to have made false claims proven by phone messages - but surely this will be seen on the phone of the other party?

I know of a case where the exonerating message from the supposed victim was to a female friend/colleague. Sadly, mentally ill and personality disordered people do exist.

Social media accounts, too, they want access. Doesn't seem to happen for other crimes.

This has been the case for a while.. victims have been talking about this for years. People haven't been listening to survivors/victims about this.

I hate to say it because I'm not a violent person - but I'd deal it's the rapist myself as the police wouldn't. Shame I'd even have to consider it.

Surely the phone is only circumstantial evidence anyway - they're not surgically attached to you, other people can type on them (as the person above who's attacker's phone evidence was discarded proves).

Why do they need to keep the phone at all? All of these messaging systems allow backups, they could simply go through messages, take the evidence in whatever approved form it needs to be, and hand it back - no more than an afternoon of whoever's investigating the case's time. Keeping the hardware is pointless, and just harms the victim more.

Personally, I think that before the police saw my phone, my lawyer would - I'm not au fait with how the police work, or the justice system, so just like if I was being interviewed I'd want my lawyer present, I'd want my lawyer to OK the police looking at my phone. I don't think the police are necessarily on my side, and I need an expert to keep them on track. I'm lucky though, I'd be able to afford that. Plenty of people couldn't.

Friends Dd had to hand her phone over, it's been two years since she was raped there was a witness who chased guy away and he still hasn't even been arrested or charged!

It all comes down to juries though, and juries are made up of random members of the public.

Police don't get to say what did or didn't happen, both sides say it in court and unfortunately because of our hugely misogynist culture juries very often choose not guilty.

With this being the case, it isn't in the public interest to prosecute cases with no hope of conviction. The mn feminist board knows that of course its possible to be raped and then continue messaging and meeting up with the attacker.

But juries won't convict in those cases and the prosecution may well be hopeless.

It's the public perception in general that needs to change for there to be an increased chance of justice for victims.

I can absolutely see that in some cases it might be helpful for victims of a crime to have their phone examined for evidence. I can. I just can’t see how, given the disgracefully low rates of successful prosecution for rape, it’s going to make any difference for a rape victim.

What we know about rape cases is that you can be the wrong sort of victim, not emotional enough, too successful, have friends, not have screamed, screamed wrong, worn knickers, gone on a date, had a drink, had consensual sex with his friend and on and on and on. The main outcome I can see for this is that even fewer victims of rape are going to come forward.

for anyone who has been through it. I’m supporting a friend at the moment and it is just the most appalling thing. The way she has been treated by the police from start to finish is a total fucking disgrace and I am so angry.

I know there have been cases where the victim has been found to have made false claims proven by phone messages - but surely this will be seen on the phone of the other party?

Traumatic enough to have gone through and attack and pluck up the courage to go to the police - but to then have your phone taken from you (for god knows how long). All your contacts, your support, even your work.

And what about the poor women murdered during sex that ‘got out of hand’? There have been a few of these recently so what would a phone say for some woman who almost dies? Arranging a meeting for, whatever - and that is seen as consent to a beating or throttling?

It does not help at all Rufus.

Every headline I've seen this morning has said "rape victims to give up phones" (or words to that effect); there doesn't seem to be any headline without the word rape in it despite the fact it would be much more accurate.

The media are clearly zeroing in on that particular angle.

it is true that with the crime of rape it becomes more complex and sensitive

Yup

And unfortunately the media are all over the 'take phones from accusers to stop false accusations'

Media reporting does not help...at all

This legislation applies to all victims of crime; there is no specific targeting of rape victims, however it is true that with the crime of rape it becomes more complex and sensitive.

There is also no 'must' about it; victims will be asked as part of evidence gathering but it will not be demanded. We have heard from at least one poster on this thread how location evidence gathered from the victims phone helped secure a conviction. If the problem is the idea that evidence on phones may be used to exonerate a rapist, e.g. flirty texts, then surely that is a problem with pervasive rape myths, and not the act of handing over a phone. The problem is the rape myths, not the evidence gathering.

Those accused of crimes are frequently asked to give up their phones, so I am unsure why so many posters have said they aren't. There has been a high profile case recently (that cricketer) where messages on his phone were used to help secure a conviction.

Well you had better get off the board too, freetone, in that case.

Please get off the feminism board if you’re going to attack rape victims. How disgusting

Oh and mine wasn’t convicted due to lack of evidence. Even though there were literally eye witnesses to the rape. I was unable to work properly for 3 years without my smartphone. Providers will not replace them on insurance if the police have got it and you’re ‘getting it back’, had to manage with a cheap thing that would crash every 2 mins

When I was raped my phone was my only comfort as it allowed me to contact friends and family, so no I didn’t just give it up. It also contained images of my child, and possibly images of my own naked body which they will have gone through. Horrendous

My attacker was convicted BTW, several years in prison. So I can’t say I regret for one moment handing my phone in for a few weeks!

There were plenty of flirty texts between me and the guy who raped me, I went on a date with him and was actually quite smitten, planned on sleeping with him as things progressed. Didn’t stop him raping me though

If the defence statement is based on consent (as Harriet Wistrich said on R4) what's wrong with that evidence being presented to the jury - on a ''the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth' basis.

@Jessica

🤔 And I support that. When it was an issue of not getting clothes back I thought that was terrible. But this is your phone, which is an important piece of evidence, and which you get back shortly after!

I don’t understand how anyone could be so offended by the thought of handing evidence over to the police, but still expect that their attacked be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

It’s not a ‘horrific comment’ it’s my personal opinion, based on having gone through this horrible process personally.

(No crime is fun, no process of achiving a prosecution is easy. But it shouldn’t be- because the legal system is a two way street)