The law on mixed sex toilets in schools

The schools here that have those toilets are all new builds so presumably subject to building regulations. How come those inspectors don't know of the regulations then?

I definitely do not want to have to be the parent at a new school who drops the illegal toilet email. So how do you deal with this if toilets aren’t compliant? Do you speak to the council?

Bearing in mind erratic periods when starting out- How are they meant to deal with washing out blood stained pants and drying them out under the hand drier to wear again, with boys around them?

I went to an all girls school with nearly 2000 other girls for 7 years - never once have I ever seen someone do this. I can’t imagine that any teenage girl would ever take their bloody knickers off, rinse them in a public sink (whether visible by boys or girls) and dry them under a hand dryer to wear again.

I seriously think that we need some form of inspectorate set up. Who go into schools and check this kind of thing out. Tell the schools they are breaking the law and insist on action. I do absolutely see it as a slow erosion of privacy and dignity and thus barriers. For girls and boys. We went on loads of secondary tours last year and loads of them were like this. As for the notion of open plan toilets reducing bullying I think that is just another typical school cop out. Schools should DEAL with the bullies. Remove them if they won’t behave. It’s not acceptable to take away privacy in response to bullying- take away the bullying instead. Wonder if the staff toilets are like this??

I'm simply stating what the law says. Your attempt to try to insert other implications into perfectly straightforward posts looks very much like someone trying to pick a fight, and I'm not playing.

They have been successfully challenged in quite a number of schools that have built these, across the entire UK, many of which have subsequently changed the facilities back to single-sex. This has been going on for a few years after all.

And the school regulations do not exist in a vacuum. They refer to other regulations and must meet a number of requirements that are not listed in this non-statutory guidance booklet. Which is why building regulations experts have unequivocally stated that these mixed-sex facilities do not meet the required regulations.

I refer you once again to the fact that there is no actual wall separating these cubicles in these blocks of toilets, because the sides are made of the same materials as the doors. And they do not open to a circulation space but are contained within a sanitary facility. Both of those facts disqualify this facility from being a unisex facility as per the wider regulations (ie the kind of single-entry facility that may be used by either sex.)

I would also refer you to the fact that the Welsh regulations do not allow any unisex facilities for use by either sex at all, they stipulate that all sanitary facilities must be sex segregated and yet here, too, are multi-entry mixed-sex facilities built. As we've just seen reported in the press, this has been met with huge protests by the pupils affected.

They are being built in this way in clear breach of the regulations. Just like in England. The same applies to Scotland. Building regulations there also make no allowance at all for any type of mixed-sex multi-entry sanitary facility in school buildings, facilities must be sex segregated. Unisex facilities must contain a wash basin within the individual enclosed space behind a lockable door. And yet mixed-sex multi-entry facilities are being built in Scotland, too, in clear breach of unequivocal, clear cut regulations.

And I am wondering why you are arguing that multi-entry mixed-sex facilities like the one illustrated here meet requirements that state multi-entry facilities must be single-sex because I am not sure what your point is. You think these are great?

Oh, the irony of arguing whilst complaining that someone else is arguing. I'm simply referring to the wording of the regulations about school facilities. Obviously it's not as clear-cut as you suggest, otherwise (a) school facilities wouldn't be built by this and (b) it's highly likely that they would have been successfully challenged by now.

Strike that second experts, it does not belong there at all.

I honestly do not know why you keep arguing about this. These are blocks of toilets, cubicles that do not have actual walls between them. Blocks of toilets must be single-sex. You're welcome to check with the building regulations experts on this who have already emphasised that a unisex facility is a self-enclosed room with floor to ceiling walls and a door. Having managed a few private building projects (and argued with building standards about toilets), I can assure you that what constitutes a wall is also strictly defined in UK building regulations experts (They put them on each and every plan I still have in the house). So these are not walls between the cubicles and therefore these are blocks not self-contained rooms.

Arguing about this aside, all the usual problems of mixed-sex toilets apply here such as noise and smell not being contained which they are in unisex facilities, boys being able to observe how long girls spend in the toilets, girls being too ashamed to ask for help when they need it because boys may overhear, boys opening doors from the outside and taking pictures of the girl on the toilet - these are all things that have happened in such facilities.

Are you okay with that?

The larger space is not closed off by a door, sometimes not even by a wall, therefore by your definition not a room.

But the toilet facilities are in a separate room by that definition, and that is what the regulations require. They don't require that the washing facilities be in a separate room.

Or alternatively, you don’t empty it at all in public - most of the cup manufacturers suggest that they can be worn for a full 12 hours - of course, that will vary from woman to woman.
New users (including those who are suffering from those vile periods that afflict some teenagers) might want to empty it more often.

Regardless of the type of sanitary protection used, most girls/women won’t want to wash menstrual blood off their hands in front of most boys/men, and most boys/men won’t want to see it either.

Privacy and dignity should be standard for both sexes.

You don’t - you use the water bottle method, unless there is a sink inside the cubicle, which is the definition of a single-user toilet, unlike the ones in the picture.

BettyDuMonde

How do you manage that in a public toilet though? You take it out and empty it into the toilet, then leave the cubicle with no sanpro and go and wash it and then go back into the toilet to re insert it? Don't you leak while you are walking backwards and forwards?

A space which is totally enclosed by the walls and door is a room. The larger space is not closed off by a door, sometimes not even by a wall, therefore by your definition not a room.

Multi-entry facilities at school ie blocks of toilets must be segregated by sex, individual cubicles can be used by both. What is an individual toilet ie a unisex facility is strictly regulated. It must open onto a circulation space (ie a hallway or entry hall). The pictured facility shows a room containing two blocks of toilets. It is clearly multi-entry because the cubicles do not open directly to a circulation space but to a space which is an integral part of the sanitary facility.

The guidance also specifically refers to toilet facilities that are not segregated by sex being unisex and the latter is of course strictly regulated and even if washbasins are not mentioned, unisex facilities are individual rooms that open directly to a circulation space as I mentioned above.

But we don't really have to argue this point. The experts on toilet regulations who have written on this issue have stated that these facilities do not meet required standards and that schools cannot simply interpret them the way that suits them.

Surely mooncups aren't emptied into a sink are they?

No, but you are supposed to wash them with unperfumed soap and then rinse thoroughly with running water before reinsertion.

In a pinch, you can rinse it out with bottled water over the loo but you are advised to clean it properly as soon as you are able.

Surely mooncups aren't emptied into a sink are they?

(Wiping out a moon cup with a wetwipe is shortcut to thrush/bv/internal dermatitis - please don’t suggest it, Mugwumpery holy fuck, ouch!)

The problem with that, CharlieParley, is that one subsection refers to toilet and washing facilities, whilst the next refers only to toilet facilities. That strongly implies that washing facilities don't have to be in the same room as toilet facilities. A space which is totally enclosed by the walls and door is a room.

Acis the interpretation of room to mean an entire block of toilets is compliant is of course incorrect.

The word room refers to a single-entry room which contains the entire toilet facility consisting of a toilet and a sink. This is either provided by one room containing both or an ante-room containing the wash basin and a further room containing just the toilet. This is specified in the regulations governing provisions for people with disabilities.

The picture shown here shows a multi-entry room containing cubicles ie your bog standard toilet block albeit without a wall or door separating it from the corridor.

So far as I can see this is compliant with the requirement that "Separate toilet facilities for boys and girls aged 8 years or over must be provided except where the toilet facility is provided in a room that can be secured from the inside and that is intended for use by one pupil at a time", provided that the cubicles are floor to ceiling The previous subsection refers to "suitable toilet and washing facilities" but only requires the toilet facilities to be separate, not the washing facilities. The guidance linked above is non-statutory and doesn't reflect what the regulations actually say.

When we were visiting secondary schools we noticed that a lot of them had gone for open unisex toilets like these. As a pp said it's all to do with not having an area where bullying can take place.

I was very pleased that DD got a place in a Girls school.

Presumably the same way as any other? You empty a mooncup down the toilet in the cubicle, not in the communal hand basins. You wipe it out with loo roll if needed. If you get blood on your hands, you wipe it off again using loo roll, or wipes if you carry them - you are going to get blood all over your clothes and the door handle if you don't en route to the basins! Basically - exactly the same as anywhere else. I am a moon cup user too, I have never either brought it into the public area of single sex loos or seen anyone else doing so. There may be issues with these loos but this isn't one of them.

JFC. We're talking about 11-year-old girls coping with this while in the company and full view of 17-year-old boys. What the fuck is the matter with a person who can't see the fucking issue?

There are no mirrors?

Not being funny and it seems trivial but teenage girls and boys are both very interested in their appearance, many are paranoid about it.

I suppose they'll all buy hand mirrors :/

To PP you may never have got sticky blood on your hands but plenty have. I never understand why some insist that their experience must be universal.

Because the setup illustrated here does not include the basin within the cubicles, these are multi-entry* toilets, that is several people can use these at the same time (allowing multiple simultaneous instances of entry to this facility).

The only multi-entry toilets that are legally permissible in schools are single-sex toilets.

The only mixed-sex facilities that are legally permissible in schools are single-entry toilets. The latter are more generally called unisex toilets because they can be used by either sex but only ever by one sex at a time (because only a single person can use them at any one time).

What you have illustrated and described are multi-entry mixed-sex toilets which are expressly forbidden by school regulations in Scotland, Wales and England (and presumably Northern Ireland too but I am not sure about that).

ISS Regulation 23A — (1) Subject to sub-paragraph (2), the standard in this paragraph is met if the proprietor ensures that—

b) separate toilet facilities for boys and girls aged 8 years or over are provided except where the toilet facility is provided in a room that can be secured from the inside and that is intended for use by one pupil at a time.

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/410294/Advice_on_standards_for_school_premises.pdf