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Original poster

Is it possible to be feminine and gender critical at the same time?

84 replies

RussellSprout · 28/04/2019 21:44

I have recently become, due to peak trans and just general awareness of all the trans bollocks, fairly gender critical in that I think we're all just people who happen to have male or female chromosomes/genitals and why does everyone have to define themselves as a man or a woman when its very easy to tell what you are, just look between your legs... ie biology defines this.
So you could say I'm gender critical/agender/don't believe in the concept of gender and gender stereotypes in society.

However, as an individual I'm quite a feminine woman. I like dresses, heels, makeup. I work in a female dominated profession. I'll happily let my husband do the DIY around the house cos I have no interest in it. I'm comfortable with being perceived as being a woman by others.

Sometimes I'm not sure if this is at odds with my new gender critical status. Is it right that I conform to female stereotypes myself whilst being aware of the rights of others not to have to do so?

I'm happily feminine and don't feel the need to resist feminine stereotypes personally, nor do so for my daughter (I'll let her play with whatever toys she wants/dress how she wants.... won't stop her from playing with princesses and pink, but won't discourage her from boys toys/colours either. She usually goes for the pink stuff) . But does that make me hypocritical?

OP posts:
TheInebriati · 30/04/2019 11:06

I think gender stereotypes still disproportionately affect males due to the 'sissy' effect.
Thats because gender rules reinforce a hierarchy, with men placed above women.

Tomboys are seen as uppity, they are resented for trying to be men.
The worst thing you can call a man is 'woman', it degrades him.

Floisme · 30/04/2019 11:02

No I don’t know her. However you were the one who brought up the subject of grandmothers - not necessarily your own but the implication was that you considered their ideas old fashioned.

I totally agree that regarding personality traits or preferences as inherently female is regressive. There was however a touch of condescension in your earlier post towards women who may choose to present in a ‘feminine’ style. That’s what I was picking up on and I wasn’t the first poster to do so.

RuffleCrow · 30/04/2019 09:03

No, Floisme. You don't know the first thing about me or my grandmother.

Regarding women as inherently feminine is regressive, outmoded repressive and unneccesary. All character traits and modes of dress are open to both sexes. There's really nothing more to it.

Moralitym1n1 · 30/04/2019 07:51

Maybe I'm being really obtuse but I don't understand why this is even a question.

Floisme · 30/04/2019 07:39

'femininity' is what your gran tried to instil in you in vain!
When you make derogatory comments about so called feminine traits you're just as guilty of lazy stereotyping as your gran ever was.

Original poster
RussellSprout · 30/04/2019 07:26

I think gender stereotypes still disproportionately affect males due to the 'sissy' effect.

You still don't see many boys doing ballet, horse riding, gymnastics at the weekend.

OP posts:
Coyoacan · 30/04/2019 03:41

Back in the 90s, it was the boys who suffered from all this gender stereotyping much more than the girls. At that point, girls were playing rugby, football, martial arts, tec. while macho fathers wouldn't let their boys take up dance or anything with a whiff of feminity about it.

MyTaxiIsAlwaysLate · 29/04/2019 21:36

do wonder if some deep embedded gendered behaviours are almost more evolutionary psychology than cultural. E.g. makeup , maybe women in prehistoric times who accentuated their features using whatever materials they could find attracted a mate more easily etc. Humans have been going for millennia so plenty of time for these things to become ingrained

In most animals the males are the ones that make all the effort to catch the mate.

Bright colours, big feathers, snazzy dances.

Additionally it has been quite normal for men and women to wear makeup since forever. It's only very recently it's become a woman thing.

Original poster
RussellSprout · 29/04/2019 21:22

Book sounds good Jellyfrizz. I find all that stuff fascinating

OP posts:
NottonightJosepheen · 29/04/2019 21:00

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jellyfrizz · 29/04/2019 20:52

Promiscuity is affected by society though, women are traditionally shamed for enjoying sex - look at the connotations of slut vs. stud even today. Women having affairs or sleeping with lots of people are going to keep it quiet whereas men can openly brag about it. That would certainly skew perception.

Angela Saini's book has lots of examples of studies that debunk evo psych theories including those about sex drive & nurturing, I'll have to fish it out to give you more details.

LassOfFyvie · 29/04/2019 20:40

It's a word that went completely out of style in the UK between about 1968-2014. Came back 'in' in certain circles with the trans fashion brigade and other gender-preoccupied types, but to most women who grew up with feminism, 'femininity' is what your gran tried to instil in you in vain!

Thread was going so well too. I'm very feminine. I never wear trousers or anything even vaguely masculine.

Original poster
RussellSprout · 29/04/2019 20:40

Jellyfrizz I don't know, I'm just asking the question if there are any. I'd have thought promiscuity/ high sex drive in males may be one. Would make sense re gene pool but could all be (literal!) bollocks!

OP posts:
NottonightJosepheen · 29/04/2019 20:35

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jellyfrizz · 29/04/2019 20:32

What 'deep grained instinctive behaviours' linked to male/females are we talking about here? Because most Evo Psych theories have been debunked.

jellyfrizz · 29/04/2019 20:32

Are some very deep grained instinctive behaviours beneficial for the survival of the species linked to male/females.

What 'deep grained instinctive behaviours' linked to male/females are we talking about here because most Evo Psych theories have been debunked?

NottonightJosepheen · 29/04/2019 20:27

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
RussellSprout · 29/04/2019 20:26

That's exactly where I'm going with this, nottongight

Are some very deep grained instinctive behaviours beneficial for the survival of the species linked to male/females.

As these have been selected through evolution.

AKA evolutionary psychology.

OP posts:
NottonightJosepheen · 29/04/2019 20:20

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jellyfrizz · 29/04/2019 20:17

such as females being nurterers and males being promiscuous

You should read Inferior by Angela Saini.

RuffleCrow · 29/04/2019 19:57

Femininity is old fashioned.

It's a word that went completely out of style in the UK between about 1968-2014. Came back 'in' in certain circles with the trans fashion brigade and other gender-preoccupied types, but to most women who grew up with feminism, 'femininity' is what your gran tried to instil in you in vain!

Original poster
RussellSprout · 29/04/2019 19:49

Question: So if some gendered behaviours are evolutionary psychology, eg women being the nurterers/carers in the social group, how does this fit in with the trans ideology of male and female brains?

I don't believe in male and female brains, but I can see how certain very instinctive behaviours key to reproduction and the survival of the species (such as females being nurterers and males being promiscuous) may become sex-linked. Which wouldn't explain why a man would feel like he's a woman but may explain some behavioural differences in the sexes. Not to say a man can't be a nurterer or a woman promiscuous, but to explain why its more common the other way around.

OP posts:
Original poster
RussellSprout · 29/04/2019 19:39

What's old fashioned?

OP posts:
RuffleCrow · 29/04/2019 19:37

Yes, of course. Although why you'd want to be something so old-fashioned is a mystery to me.

Goosefoot · 29/04/2019 19:34

I do wonder if some deep embedded gendered behaviours are almost more evolutionary psychology than cultural. E.g. makeup , maybe women in prehistoric times who accentuated their features using whatever materials they could find attracted a mate more easily etc. Humans have been going for millennia so plenty of time for these things to become ingrained

I would be surprised if this was not the case. Every mammal has behavioural elements of their sex, it would be really odd if humans did not as well. Because we live in social cultures, you would expect that those kinds of things would be expressed culturally some of the time.

For that matter, plenty of stereotypes can be true observations. It's bit of a stereotype that academically, girls tend to be ahead of boys developmentally in early elementary school, and that seems to be biological. The problem with them tends to be when they get in the way of treating someone as a person.