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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I've lost my daughter to trans activism

89 replies

slipperywhensparticus · 26/04/2019 22:10

First year at uni and she is lost

I've known she is a lesbian for ages it doesn't bother me

She now believes Julia long is violent aggressive and deserves to be forcibly removed for thinking about asking questions

Men are allowed to be women if that's how they feel

Biology is not reality

The female brain is real

Karen white is a rare example and it was only once it's not enough to get worked up about

She considers herself part of the trans community despite considering herself female

She believes women can have penises

Fucks sake I hate this she isnt even bothered about sharing toilets and changing rooms with men

I'm giving up why should I fight when my only reason to protect women's spaces isnt bothered fuck it all

OP posts:
slipperywhensparticus · 27/04/2019 16:48

That's where I'm going with this is avoiding conflict I'm hoping she is as good a kid as I hope I've raised she is quite challenging but she has never really challenged me this much before it was a surprise and a half I'm hoping I've given her the tools to think about things and she will see sense when she sees what is going on in front of her...I hope

OP posts:
Toorahtoorahaye · 27/04/2019 16:43

I’d just avoid it as much as possible- don’t let this get between you and your daughter. The more you push, the more you might drive her the other way

DarkAtEndOfTunnel · 27/04/2019 16:18

Is there any mileage in the conflict between "if they hurt peoples feelings" where people means men, and the way feminists are being told to shut up and viewed as hysterical? Why are some people's feelings more precious than women's? Hasn't she hurt your feelings by saying that questions must not be asked?

Antibles · 27/04/2019 15:49

Thanks fanny

newtlover · 27/04/2019 14:38

oh dear OP she will be very vulnerable then
all the more reason to keep communicating
difficult

SquishySquirmy · 27/04/2019 14:32

I really wouldn't ask her that question directly.

Because while it may make her confront her cognitive dissonance, she might not resolve it in the way you would want.
Ie, by asking herself "am I hypocrite to think twaw but not want to sleep with one?" She may find herself forced to choose between the two conflicting beliefs, and that is risky if she's desperate to be "nice" "tolerant" and fit in with current woke think.

I think reinforcing how healthy and essential personal boundaries are in conversations unrelated to the gender debate, when you are both on ideologically neutral ground is a much better tactic.

Gently challenge some of the doctrine in a roundabout way, and let her come round in her own time, without forcing the issue.

No one that age likes being told what to think by their parents (even when the parents are right!)

slipperywhensparticus · 27/04/2019 12:54

I cant ask her the question long story short she was molested wont even use tampons funds the thought of anything going "up there" hideous and needs therapy but will never get it on the NHS my biggest fear is she will get to involved and get herself into a situation she cant get out of I hate that she has chosen a far away uni but accepted it was her time to fly this is unfortunately my reality and my worst nightmare

OP posts:
kesstrel · 27/04/2019 10:35

OP, remember that the brain doesn't fully mature till age 25 or so. At the age your daughter is at, it's still difficult to take an objective perspective on things, and to separate out the desire to believe something is true from objective reality. She wants/needs to believe this stuff because being socially accepted depends on it. I can remember being in a similar place at Uni (although the beliefs were different), and the way my mind worked at the time. Once she's left that environment, and her brain is more mature, her views will probably begin to shift.

R0wantrees · 27/04/2019 10:04

Also for an easy to follow setting out of the issues can look up Magdalen Berns’ videos on YouTube.

Magdalen Berns describing her experience at Edinburgh University & an explanation of NUS policies & power abuses:

'NUS Safespace & No-Platform Censorship'

HorsewithnoPhD · 27/04/2019 09:57

Ask if she would be okay with having sex with a transwoman who still has full male anatomy.

OP, have you been able to ask your daughter this killer question?

What did she say?

MockerstheFeManist · 27/04/2019 09:56

Peachyogurt's bicycle is a simplified example of Wittgensten's Set Theory:

A thing belongs to a given set because there are a number of attributes associated with that set. A thing may not posess all the attributes, and may also posess other attributes not associated with the set, but the preponderance of the associated attributes tends to denote the thing.

In plain language, "If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck and swims like a duck, it's a duck."

Fans of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance would recognise this as the Perception of Quality. You know what a duck is. You just do.

With the biological sexes, the perception of sex works like this, but the underlying reality is much simpler. It's down to the Y Chromasome. If you have it, you are male. If you don't, you can only be female.

Masculinity and Femininity, whole other crock of stuff.

ChattyLion · 27/04/2019 09:56

I do feel as though students on some courses feel as though they have to accept the trans narrative in order to fit in even if if means ignoring their own discomfort with the narrative.

Also agree with what newtlover said about the way that raising your kids to be thoughtful about sex and gender issues and also shielding them as best you can do (which is what a lot of us are trying to do) makes them possibly less prepared by life experience to think critically about (or less still be able to speak out against) the TWAW narrative which will be presented to students as ‘the norm’, always presented in emotive terms referencing suicide and anti-transwomen violence (.. ignoring the sex based violence against women that pervades our culture and the numbers of women killed every week in the UK by men.Hmm.) but your daughter will get it in time because she already has got the fundamentals from how you’ve brought her up. Flowers

Maybe ask her to think about why she thought those lesbians lay down in front of the Pride March last year? They’re not doing it because they are old and stupid. They’re doing it because they are brave as fuck and (rightly) see lesbianism as being existentially threatened by current TRA politics.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3294339-cotton-ceiling-evidence-thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3299646-Lesbians-protest-at-London-Pride-getthelout?pg=1&order=

getthelout.wordpress.com/2018/07/05/the-journey-begins/

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3301033-Get-the-L-Out-Statement-by-the-lesbian-protesters-at-Pride-London

and is it right that so many lesbians say they are uncomfortable in a supposedly lesbian and gay-friendly space these days?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3443042-The-misogyny-continues-in-Manchesters-Gay-Village

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3350481-Homophobic-attack-against-lesbians-at-Manchester-Pride

Because of these politics that advantage men?

Gay men get it too- see Jonny Best’s writing on Medium and petition to Stonewall.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3337410-Artistic-Director-of-Queer-Up-North-speaks-out-on-trans-activism-Stonewall-and-womens-rights

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard/3384045-Petition-to-Stonewall

and also she might be interested to see the recent survey of lesbians by Angela C Wilde.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3547287-Fantastic-report-from-Get-The-L-Out-please-share-widely?watched=1&msgid=86624632#86624632

Also for an easy to follow setting out of the issues can look up Magdalen Berns’ videos on YouTube.

Your daughter has a whole lesbian community available to her. This anti-woman community is not her only option, just might take her a while to see it for what it is. Flowers

NeurotrashWarrior · 27/04/2019 09:50

Ps Jaydis Argipope in the Ben Boyce film makes a big point that anyone can commission a weak study to show anything they want to show and use that to gaslight and perpetuate the denial of biological reality.

There are actual structures in the male and female brains that are different. This doesn't translate into skills, likes and preferences for 'gendered' activities, clothes and skills.

Echobelly · 27/04/2019 09:50

I agree with @EvaHarknessRose - don't go head to head, it'll drive her hard towards the TRA camp and set her against you. I'd trust her to come round to things in her own time rather than making an issue of it, nothing you can say will change her mind, but hopefully over time she will listen to other women's voices.

NeurotrashWarrior · 27/04/2019 09:47

Eight Things You Need to Know About Sex, Gender, Brains, and Behavior: A Guide for Academics, Journalists, Parents, Gender Diversity Advocates, Social Justice Warriors, Tweeters, Facebookers, and Everyone Else
by Cordelia Fine, Daphna Joel and Gina Rippon

Extremely important reading, as is Gina's book the Gendered Brain.

sfonline.barnard.edu/neurogenderings/eight-things-you-need-to-know-about-sex-gender-brains-and-behavior-a-guide-for-academics-journalists-parents-gender-diversity-advocates-social-justice-warriors-tweeters-facebookers-and-ever/

NeurotrashWarrior · 27/04/2019 09:44

Ironically, the trans movement approach debate in a binary fashion while denying there's a biological binary of sex.

They think any feminist questioning it are wholly bad and evil. And no debate.

There are very many levels of nuance and complexity around what exactly trans is, as these films show.

Not recognising this is ultimately extremely dangerous. Not helpful for you op but these young uni kids need to stop being so binary about the debate!

NeurotrashWarrior · 27/04/2019 09:38

Ben Boyce on YouTube has done many videos with the de transitioners below as well as a few others including transwomem.

His interview with Ben GNCentric is extremely good and important.

Also his latest with a trans woman.

I notice he's interviewed Erin Brewer who talks about how trauma leads to gender dysphoria and the importance of treatment as a mh condition and that transitioning isn't always the right treatment.

R0wantrees · 27/04/2019 09:34

Ask her how she defines transwomen? What is a trans woman? If she goes down the "anyone who says they are" pathway she'll hopefully make her own connections about how that simply can't make any sense.

Peach Yoghurt
'Transgender and the Bicycle Analogy'

R0wantrees · 27/04/2019 09:10

Karen white is a rare example and it was only once it's not enough to get worked up about

Its not about Karen White, its about the vulnerable female prisoners who White assaulted (4) & also the vulnerable women prisoners who had been locked in with & forced to share space (showers) with White, a predatory male convicted of multiple assaults against women & children.

Its about the MoJ system which has failed in its duty of care to all female prisoners.

There are many vulnerable women currently locked in with violent male prisoners including paedophiles thoughout the UK. In Scotland the prison system allows self-id, see Sophie Eastwood/ Alex Stweart/ Tiffany Scott for consequences.
transcrimeuk.com/2017/11/12/male-transgender-individuals-convicted-of-violence-against-women-children/

Women in prison are especially vulnerable & the majority already being victims of male abuse/violence.

LangCleg · 27/04/2019 09:07

I wonder if in the future, there will be two types of people - cis and trans, but it'll have nothing to do with gender. Trans will be those with body modifications, who see themselves as super human, and cis will be the rest of us, without.

When I'm feeling pessimistic, I envisage a neo-feudal transhumanist future, in which the elites pillage and ravage the bodies of the neo-serfs - surrogacy, transplants etc, gender-related or otherwise.

Are you aware of the YA sequence by Scott Westerfeld called Uglies?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uglies

Or Altered Carbon. Something like that.

R0wantrees · 27/04/2019 08:52

I just got back that feminists are being seen as hysterical women just like suffragettes were and wont achieve anything

There are some parallels in the manner in which women are being smeared, silenced etc.

Perhaps if people understood better about how women achieved the vote despite all the barriers, pressures, violence & attempts at control they might feel more admiration for those women who were also deliberately labelled as 'hysterical'.

There are a number of Dr Julia Long's speeches available.
recently at Haringey Resisters:

Dr Julia Long's speech (WNTT Speakers' Corner event 2017) with feminist analysis about the history and importance of women being able to name men as men, identify male behaviours and patriarchal power is available & worth reading in full as many TRAs & allies have seen a small clip deliberately cut & widely distributed with commentary:

pastebin.com/nGwr3i4U

transcribed by PencilsinSpace who was there and explained:
"It was a bit like in the emperor's new clothes when the little boy cries out 'but he hasn't got anything on!' - everybody's thinking it, everybody knows it, but nobody's dared to say it. So of course it's shocking when someone finally dares.

Julia's talk was all about the importance of being able to name a man as a man. It's about shedding light on the situation we find ourselves in, which can only be done if we can name men as men."

Dr Julia Long (transcribed):
(small extract & speech worth reading in full)
"So I just wanted to start with that simple act of naming because that's the sort of thing that we're not supposed to do. (continues)

We're also told, and I think these are things we really need to think about, when we're told that by simply naming a man as a man that we are making young people kill themselves. Because that is some of the worst emotional blackmail that I have heard, but for any of us who work in the women's sector and have heard the way that abusive men try to control their partners, then threats to kill themselves come as no surprise. But this has taken on a bit of a different slant because we are being told that if we name men as men, if we assert our right to name reality, that we are contributing to children's suicide, is a particularly pernicious rhetorical strategy and manipulative rhetorical strategy of transgender activists, so I think we need to really think about what's going on when they do that. And similarly, in terms of you're killing transwomen, who are women, not men etcetera.

So we're subjected to all of this kind of thing, we're also subjected to this kind of thing, as I said they often get called TERFs, transphobes etc. This is just - I mean these are a bit old now so there's been plenty more since these appeared online. But this kind of imagery here, 'Have it TERFs' with a huge man wielding an axe, about to chop this woman into bits by the look of it.

But we are told that we are violent and we are using hate speech and that we are responsible for deaths when the amount of rhetorical violence, hate speech and threats that come from transgender activists is really ... really ... you need a strong stomach to read some of this stuff. This quote here is about how we need to have our throats slit one by one etc.
So it really is quite indistinguishable from the kinds of online misogyny we see from the old-fashioned kind of men who wear trousers, it doesn't look really very different XXXXXX [redacted for MN guidelines]

Thread following the forcible removal of lesbians & other women by male security guards & police from Accenture's 'inclusive' LGBT+ event has further links:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3539529-Lesbians-removed-from-Accenture-inclusive-trans-event-by-7-police-officers

BuckingFrolics · 27/04/2019 08:37

My DD and I had some of our worst arguments about trans issues. We had to agree simple not to talk about it.

That was 3 years ago. I am so glad we were able to take that step as I adore her and the pain of being in conflict with her was awful. I think, but do not dare ask, that she is changing her views.

redcaryellowcar · 27/04/2019 08:30

I don't really have any useful advice on the lesbian/ trans issues but would reiterate that whatever her beliefs and yours, she's your daughter and perhaps relax and consider this a phase, keep being interested in her, take her out for lunch, go shopping etc, do 'normal' things with her. I realise at the moment the 'brain washing' is scary, but if you fall out with her you'll have even less influence.

truthisarevolutionaryact · 27/04/2019 08:20

OP - it's worth remembering that your daughter is currently being compelled to believe TWAW etc. Life for a Uni student who doesn't parrot these mantras would be very hard. Some of the biggest bullies (the gravy train riders, writers of bollocks and the ones monitoring / threatening other academics for wrongthought and wrongspeak) work in Unis and therefore set a climate of fear and intimidation. They have a lot of power there and exercise it over our young people.

They do move on from the Uni phase - and if she's never rebelled before - well here it is. Like everyone suggests, I'd pick my battles and keep the relationship going at all costs.

SquishySquirmy · 27/04/2019 08:17

Tricky, bit try to avoid arguing her into a corner, even if you have the better arguments and logic on your side you'll risk her digging her heels in.

For some reason the advice given to those whose relatives/loved ones have joined a cult have come into my head....
"don't tell them they've been brainwashed"