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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My complaint to Glasgow Life re sports centres

238 replies

ImNotNigel · 23/04/2019 22:08

( NC for obvious reasons )

Glasgow Life are the Council organisation that run sports centres in Glasgow. They have been in the papers about their policy of allowing men into women only facilities

www.heraldscotland.com/news/17588777.cross-dress-males-to-be-allowed-in-women-only-gym-sessions-in-glasgow/?ref=twtrec

I am a member so I went tonight to complaint to the manager at the local centre. He was a young man of around 30.

It took about 5 mins of patient questioning from me for him to admit it was indeed council policy. He kept maintaining that there were no mixed sex or unisex facilities, but eventually he acknowledged it.

So I asked him if I could go right then and use the male changing room, ( I’m an XX person for the avoidance of doubt ).

He told me no, because I wasn’t “going through the process of gender change”. Now the council policy specifically says this is not required, but decided not to argue this further.

I told him that I indentified as agender, which counted as trans. He looked very perplexed by this, and questioned me for another 5 mins, arguing that I wasn’t. Although he agreed that if I was, I could use the Male changing room.

He waxed lyrical about the individual cubicles for showers and changing ( within the Male changing room ). I checked that their was no requirement on me ( since I was identifying as male tonight ) to use these and I could walk around naked in the men’s changing room if I wanted to, and would this be fine.

He said “ We were told in our training that that would never happen, because you would be ashamed of your body”. So I asked if he was suggesting that I should be ashamed of my body.

He knew he was in a hole but he kept on digging.

Then he went for the sympathy vote, pointlessly appealing to my female socialisation . He tilted his head and declared

“ You know it’s hard for people like you and me to understand what it feels like to be trans and how hard it must be. So the council has to allowed them access, it’s the law”.

[ feeble attempt at forced teaming there too ]

I reminded him that I was trans myself and asked which law. He replied “ Well you know more that me as you have read up on it “ .

I asked about their Equality Impact Assessment and the about the effects on other centre users, who didn’t want to share showers and changing areas with a person of the opposite sex. He said “ Well they wouldn’t be the opposite sex would they ? “.

I guessed that was in his training too.

By the end he was losing his temper, so ( perhaps wisely ) said “ I’m not talking to you anymore, you need to speak to someone in legal”.

He went to reception to look up a number and said to his two female colleagues ( who were trying not to snigger ) “ For fucks sake, now she’s telling me she’s trans “.

I said “ I can’t believe you are questioning my gender identity. Please stop saying that, it’s very offensive “.

He threw a paper at me with a number and stormed off.

It was entertaining but rather unsatisfactory. I think I can guess who did their training.

So it’s the Council Legal Services tomorrow, that should be better.

And of course I will complain about being told that I’m not trans. Repeatedly.

I guess the training didn’t cover that bit.

OP posts:
Antibles · 23/04/2019 23:10

I hope his colleagues immediately filed a hate crime incident report.

Grin
terftastic1984 · 23/04/2019 23:09

I’m confused - are you trans?

MrsFogi · 23/04/2019 23:06

He said “ We were told in our training that that would never happen, because you would be ashamed of your body”

I suspect that they are relying on some being ashamed so not rocking the boat in the men's changing rooms. However men must be allowed to strut their stuff in the women's.

DonkeyHohtay · 23/04/2019 23:05

Lee Cormack is most definitely a woman. And most definitely married to Susan, who is also most definitely a woman ;-)

youllhavehadyourtea · 23/04/2019 23:05

Glasgow Life's Chief Executive is Bridget McConnell who is married to Lord Jack McConnell who is a former (Labour) FIrst Minister of Scotland.

HumberElla · 23/04/2019 23:03

adaline if he was doing his job and following the training then he wouldn’t have challenged this customer regarding their gender identity or told them they clearly weren’t in the process of changing gender or that they weren’t (in his view) trans.

I agree the policy isn’t the fault of venues or their management. But the application of it by management and front line staff needs to be fair and transparent for all.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 23/04/2019 23:02

Lee could be a man though? Like Lee Child.

Flockingflamingo · 23/04/2019 23:02

Centre managers are well placed to tell the Council why this won’t work and is a bad idea.

I think you might be overestimating the sway centre managers have. Ultimately they dont set the policy, the are just there to enforce it.

DonkeyHohtay · 23/04/2019 23:00

Glasgow City Council's legal manager is Lee Cormack - who is married to Susan Calman.

And therefore a lesbian.

I would hope she would be a lot more clued up on the issue and understand exactly where you are coming from.

KatvonHostileExtremist · 23/04/2019 22:57

Disgraceful he didn't accept your gender identity.
I hope his colleagues immediately filed a hate crime incident report.

OhHolyJesus · 23/04/2019 22:56

Another well done from me on the push back. I'm going to ask my local pool about their policy tomorrow. Loving your work OP! Will be watching for updates x

VickyEadie · 23/04/2019 22:54

I've had a reply to my ongoing complaint to my council-run leisure centres about the changing facilities and self-id policy. A quick scan of it today suggests it's a whitewash, tells me to alert staff if I'm assaulted by a bloke in the changing rooms and fails utterly to answer my specific questions or supply the risk assessments I asked for.

I shall update my own thread when I've had time to read and consider my response (recent quite sad personal matters have somewhat taken over my attention for a while).

ImNotNigel · 23/04/2019 22:53

Since I’m a man tonight I feel heartless and not the slightest bit sorry for him. Because this won’t change until the men speak up.

Centre managers are well placed to tell the Council why this won’t work and is a bad idea. I could see the look on his face when I asked if it would be ok for me to walk around the men’s changing room naked - fat middle aged me.

He KNOWS he would have dozens of complaints, the place was mobbed with children and teenagers.

He belived what they told him in his training “ this never happens” and “ it’s the law”.

So I don’t feel sorry for him.

I feel very anxious for the safely of my teenaged daughters and their friends, who have been told if they complain about a man in their safe spaces , it will be a hate crime.

I feel sorry for all the women who will now be reluctant to use the facilities, in case they are embarrassed, humiliated or assaulted.

Especially those who will stop going altogether, because their religion or culture only permits them to attend women only events. Our local pool is closed to men one night a week, all staff are female too. I understand that many of the women who attend still wear fulll body swim wear that also covers their head. It’s one of the few places they can go without a male chaperone.

And I feel sorry for the girls whose parents will stop them going to play sport, in case they get assaulted . And for the women and girls who will be harassed and spied upon, unwilling participants in a strangers sexual fetish.

OP posts:
youllhavehadyourtea · 23/04/2019 22:50

For fucks sake, now she’s telling me she’s trans

Do you think the policy was "sensitively explained" to you?

OccasionalKite · 23/04/2019 22:49

The policy isn't his fault though, is it? Presumably he's just doing his job!

Correct, but NotNigel (who is a customer) spoke with the manager, and it is the manager's job to deal professionally with customers and changes affecting them.

Hopefully, the manager will have a think about this, and recognise the ridiculousness of the situation, and provide feedback up the chain to their own managers about how customers, the public, feel about these changes.

LangCleg · 23/04/2019 22:47

LOL!

GodDammitAmy · 23/04/2019 22:47

He went to reception to look up a number and said to his two female colleagues ( who were trying not to snigger ) “ For fucks sake, now she’s telling me she’s trans

Can you imagine the outrage and lawsuit threats if this had been said about a TW?

Bravo OP.

Graphista · 23/04/2019 22:43

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

Adaline - that's NEVER a good enough reason to treat people badly it CERTAINLY isn't a good enough reason to compromise people's safety.

timeisonmycider · 23/04/2019 22:42

Very well done Nigel.

I increasingly believe that the answer to this is for xx's to stand under the trans umbrella and stroll into the male changing rooms and this is exactly what I shall also do when they roll this out my way.

Thank you for blazing the trail.

UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea · 23/04/2019 22:39

Awesome. KOKO.

adaline · 23/04/2019 22:38

The policy isn't his fault though, is it? Presumably he's just doing his job!

VickyEadie · 23/04/2019 22:36

He said “ We were told in our training that that would never happen, because you would be ashamed of your body”

I found this comment especially worrying. We all know that there are men (and indeed, it's them we fear will take advantage of such policies) who particularly want to be naked around women. That the 'training' has told staff it 'won't happen because people are ashamed of their bodies' is the most disingenuous (do I mean that? Or do I mean deliberately false?) bit of the entire piece.

MaFleur · 23/04/2019 22:32

Star Flowers Star

HumberElla · 23/04/2019 22:31

He went to reception to look up a number and said to his two female colleagues ( who were trying not to snigger ) “ For fucks sake, now she’s telling me she’s trans

Thus perfectly illustrating that they know fine well the whole policy is nonsense. But they will still enforce it nonetheless, as long as it doesn’t inconvenience men that is.

Changingweather · 23/04/2019 22:31

Well done! Very well done. And thank you.