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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My complaint to Glasgow Life re sports centres

238 replies

ImNotNigel · 23/04/2019 22:08

( NC for obvious reasons )

Glasgow Life are the Council organisation that run sports centres in Glasgow. They have been in the papers about their policy of allowing men into women only facilities

www.heraldscotland.com/news/17588777.cross-dress-males-to-be-allowed-in-women-only-gym-sessions-in-glasgow/?ref=twtrec

I am a member so I went tonight to complaint to the manager at the local centre. He was a young man of around 30.

It took about 5 mins of patient questioning from me for him to admit it was indeed council policy. He kept maintaining that there were no mixed sex or unisex facilities, but eventually he acknowledged it.

So I asked him if I could go right then and use the male changing room, ( I’m an XX person for the avoidance of doubt ).

He told me no, because I wasn’t “going through the process of gender change”. Now the council policy specifically says this is not required, but decided not to argue this further.

I told him that I indentified as agender, which counted as trans. He looked very perplexed by this, and questioned me for another 5 mins, arguing that I wasn’t. Although he agreed that if I was, I could use the Male changing room.

He waxed lyrical about the individual cubicles for showers and changing ( within the Male changing room ). I checked that their was no requirement on me ( since I was identifying as male tonight ) to use these and I could walk around naked in the men’s changing room if I wanted to, and would this be fine.

He said “ We were told in our training that that would never happen, because you would be ashamed of your body”. So I asked if he was suggesting that I should be ashamed of my body.

He knew he was in a hole but he kept on digging.

Then he went for the sympathy vote, pointlessly appealing to my female socialisation . He tilted his head and declared

“ You know it’s hard for people like you and me to understand what it feels like to be trans and how hard it must be. So the council has to allowed them access, it’s the law”.

[ feeble attempt at forced teaming there too ]

I reminded him that I was trans myself and asked which law. He replied “ Well you know more that me as you have read up on it “ .

I asked about their Equality Impact Assessment and the about the effects on other centre users, who didn’t want to share showers and changing areas with a person of the opposite sex. He said “ Well they wouldn’t be the opposite sex would they ? “.

I guessed that was in his training too.

By the end he was losing his temper, so ( perhaps wisely ) said “ I’m not talking to you anymore, you need to speak to someone in legal”.

He went to reception to look up a number and said to his two female colleagues ( who were trying not to snigger ) “ For fucks sake, now she’s telling me she’s trans “.

I said “ I can’t believe you are questioning my gender identity. Please stop saying that, it’s very offensive “.

He threw a paper at me with a number and stormed off.

It was entertaining but rather unsatisfactory. I think I can guess who did their training.

So it’s the Council Legal Services tomorrow, that should be better.

And of course I will complain about being told that I’m not trans. Repeatedly.

I guess the training didn’t cover that bit.

OP posts:
SarahTancredi · 24/04/2019 09:09

Of course if that were true, they would just use the existing disabled facilities or the unisex facilities in the swimming area. Or even the changing rooms that corespond to their biological sex. And I assume that’s what anyone with gender dysphoria actually does right now

Well that's just it isnt it. I mean if they were so ashamed of their bodies they would use the cubicles provided . Many leisure centres have changing villages as well as the Male and female group change areas.

Yet they are specifically demanding access to the womens group change. They only ever target the services or facilities aimed at women

I'm thick as two short planks and even ive noticed that and I couldn't manage or organise a piss up in an brewery

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 24/04/2019 09:08

Brilliant and good luck. Seems you were misgendered too........

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 24/04/2019 08:49

Shame we can’t persuade a group of nuns to go swimming and declare that they are entitled to use the men’s changing room. Not sure if they are men only swim sessions but we can only hope.

littlbrowndog · 24/04/2019 08:32

Great work Nigel 🍻🍻🥂

ImNotNigel · 24/04/2019 07:23

I asked him how he thought other service users might feel to have an opposite sex person in the changing rooms .

He spent 5 mins telling me “ that wouldn’t happen “ because anyone doing that would, by his personal definition, not be “ the opposite sex “.

So I assume that’s from his training - he’s been told that everyone who does this already has a GRC. Which is wrong of course. Mistake number one.

Them mistake number two - that a GRC literally makes you the opposite sex, rather than creating a legal fiction. So anyone objecting must be irrational and hateful.

Then mistake number three - all people with a GRC have had full surgery.

Number four - anyone who is trans ( and therefore has a GRC and has had full surgery ) is ashamed of their body and would want to hide it. So therefore they would use a cubicle and not upset anyone else.

I really don’t think he was saying that trans people SHOULD be ashamed. Just that they would be ( by definition ) .

Of course if that were true, they would just use the existing disabled facilities or the unisex facilities in the swimming area. Or even the changing rooms that corespond to their biological sex. And I assume that’s what anyone with gender dysphoria actually does right now.

Of course that’s not the people I’m worried about - it’s the ones with AGP and the voyeurs who get off on harsssing women .

I’m assuming this is the managers personal very male centred view ie “ they’ve had their penis cut off FFS, who would do that for the wrong reasons, they must be genuine and very troubled, feel sorry for them “. Or again, maybe that’s what he’s been told at training .

Hence his extreme anger at a “ non genuine trans person “ like me - fat female and forty. I don’t even have blue hair or doc martens (although I was cross dressing in navy trousers and a jumper).

Number five - people like me can’t be trans ( see above ).

Number six - only people who meet his personal definition of trans can use the opposite sex changing rooms.

Number seven - it’s “ The Law”, Glasgow Life don’t have any choice in this.

This is why I blame his training, which is probably exactly as someone described upthread.

How the hell is he going to cope when a crowd of angry women and children come to complain that there’s a man wanking in the ladies or taking photos in the showers?

Oh no, wait, I know. He’s to get out the hate crime reporting form and threaten to call the police, as per the Councils policy.

You’d think that an organisation with 70 in house lawyers and government funding of £1,218.217 million could do better than this.

OP posts:
Floisme · 24/04/2019 07:18
Star
SarahTancredi · 24/04/2019 07:04

Oh to have been there when in one fould swoop you have shown them just how idiotic they have been.

It will never happen...so in all those years running a leisure centre you haven't had to call police or throw someone out once?

Yeah right...

ShouldBeCookingDinner · 24/04/2019 07:00

They're opening themselves up to legal action if a woman is attacked oe harassed by a man in what is meant to be a single sex area, and they have allowed the sexes to mix.

Snarglefisker · 24/04/2019 06:11

I took it that men will go into the women’s because they feel like a woman, but the manager would not expect women to do the opposite because they have something to be ashamed of.

RedToothBrush · 24/04/2019 03:18

If they are so ashamed and embarrassed by their bodies why aren't they asking for private changing in a third space where they cannot be seen by others who do not understand? Why do they have to use the opposite sexes at all? Surely this shame would be worse in the changing rooms where your bits didn't match the sign on the door?

I can't get away from reflecting that means it comes back to psychologically getting one over the feeling of others to make yourself feel better. If that the case thats about power not your feelings about your body.

RedToothBrush · 24/04/2019 03:07

I do actually feel a bit sorry for the frontline staff dealing with this shit.

Why.

'Just following orders' isn't a defence. If there were an incident in the changing rooms when they were on duty as the manager responsible, who gets thrown under the bus legally? The idiot who never questioned the shit policy in the first place. Saying you were doing what you were told in brain washing training isn't sufficient. Everyone has a brain to question discrimination - the answers this guy gave show his prejudice loud and clear

LassOfFyvie · 24/04/2019 01:12

Glasgow City Council's legal manager is Lee Cormack - who is married to Susan Calman

Lee Cormack is one of 70 solicitors at Glasgow council. The head of the legal department and Solicitor to the Council is
Carole Forrest.

InionEile · 24/04/2019 01:04

I suspect it’s also because he know that XX Women are VERY unlikely to parade naked around the men’s changing room , just because we can. And although some XY men are VERY likely to do this in the women changing rooms, he doesn’t care about that.

This is what's so unfair about the entire system. Only men benefit from a policy where anyone who declares they are trans can use any changing room. Trans men who pass and have had a double mastectomy might be fine with using the men's changing room but how many biological women proving a point or even pre-op trans men will be comfortable doing so? Very few.

The only people who benefit from a policy where anyone can use any changing room are males who do not pass as female for whatever reason but want to use the women's changing room - for whatever reason. We're not allowed to dare suggest any reason other than that they are women just all the other people in the women's changing room.

recall · 24/04/2019 00:59

👍

CardsforKittens · 24/04/2019 00:56

recall
XX=human female
XY=human male
The X and Y are chromosomes.

recall · 24/04/2019 00:50

I’m really sorry to ask ...but what is an XX and XY ?

Trousering · 24/04/2019 00:49

Ashamed of their body

Trans teaching point number one.

Ereshkigal · 24/04/2019 00:40

It's such bullshit. Well said, Datun and well done OPThanks

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 24/04/2019 00:39

Interesting that it's Lee Cormack who's the lawyer. I hear she is quite smart.

Here's hoping.

Datun · 24/04/2019 00:36

Is this is what they teach their staff

That women are ashamed of their bodies

Quite. At a gym no less. Women won't want to do it. Not looking like that, luv. Snort

This is all kinds of fucked up notNige. Men getting boners from wearing the wife's frilly drawers can parade up and down the women's all the live long day. Indeed they expect them to. Then even specify it.

But anything remotely resembling a reciprocal arrangement? Not in a million.

And the whole fricking world knows why.

Plus cross dressing isn't trans. You don't even have to be agender. Just wear a tie.

Well done. And massive solidarity.

tobee · 24/04/2019 00:32

I'm much in awe of NotNige for being so articulate. Thank you so much!

Ereshkigal · 24/04/2019 00:31

Some men like the idea of women being "punished" with men in our spaces. It appeals to them.

YY.

Erythronium · 24/04/2019 00:28

Earning 35k a year is more than enough to be able to explain the policy correctly and deal diplomatically with a member of the public questioning it.

Some men like the idea of women being "punished" with men in our spaces. It appeals to them.

ImNotNigel · 24/04/2019 00:22

Don't blame the poor front of house staff member on minimum wage for not being able to aptly express a policy and information that he was probably only recently presented with. Blame the powers that be for not being transparent - through signage and other communication -about their obvious policy

He wasn’t front of house on minimum wage, he’s a centre manager, they are on £35k+.

And I didn’t ask him to explain it, I asked him to note my complaint and he denied that such a policy existed. For about 5 mins of my persistent but polite questioning.

I’d have been out of there in 2 mins if he has done me the courtesy of being honest and doing his job . Instead he lied to me repeatedly.

There is no such policy.
This never happens.
War is peace, freedom is slavery.

OP posts:
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