My complaint to Glasgow Life re sports centres

Since then, we have had more than 20 million attendances across our sport facilities and no reports of inappropriate behaviour in regard to trans customers. Trans men and trans women have been using our facilities for many years without incident.

It never happens. What will they do when it does?

And well done, ImNotNigel

I've not got anywhere yet. Got told yesterday they'd phone me back once they found someone who understands the law but nothing. Phoned again today, to chase them up, so some higher manager got called in who is now looking into this and will call me back asap.

As they never took the time to actually listen to what my points might be, I'm at a loss as to how the higher manager can possibly look into my issue.

They quote this from the EA to back up their policy.

The Equality Act 2010 says that … To be protected from gender reassignment discrimination, you do not need to have undergone any specific treatment or surgery to change from your birth sex to your preferred gender. This is because changing your physiological or other gender attributes is a personal process rather than a medical one.

You can be at any stage in the transition process – from proposing to reassign your gender, to undergoing a process to reassign your gender, or having completed it.

There is nothing there that says you have to be treated as if you have changed sex. How can anyone read that and interpret it in that way? I suppose they might have had some "advice" from somewhere.

When it comes to facilities segregated on the basis of sex, whether a person has completed a process of gender reassignment or not is entirely irrelevant to their right to access single-sex facilities. The only thing that matters is whether they share that particular protected characteristic or not. Sharing in the case of sex means either legal or biological sex. Which always excludes those who do not have a GRC.

Thanks oldcrone saw it on LinkedIn so didnt want to link in case it linked my profile!

They don't understand the law

Agreed

from their transgender policy

The Equality Act (2010) which is the current legislation in relation to equalities both in the UK and Scotland protects the rights of transgender people. Under this legislation, trans people can use changing and showering facilities appropriate to their chosen gender, even when they may not have completed their gender reassignment or have opted for a social transition.

^ this is simply not true

Providing leisure facilities to women from strict patriarchal faiths is a perfectly legitimate aim, and excluding males from women's single sex swimming sessions would be perfectly lawful

why don't they care about women?

www.glasgowlife.org.uk/news/statement-regarding-equal-access-to-sport-facilities

They don't understand the law.

Well they don’t understand the EA at all do they?

It’s not discrimination to ask a man with no GRC not to use the ladies changing rooms geniuses. It would be discriminatory to offer him no where to get changed

Have you seen the statement they've just published?

Well done, ImNotNigel. You sound brave and calm; I practically had tachycardia (sp?) when I called out our local bike shop(!) whose stated inclusivity postcard on the desk had gender rather than sex listed on it as one of the protected characteristics.

Are you going to the Glasgow meeting on 24th? Seems like it might be a good (safe) way for Scottish women to organise.

100% support to OP.

Well done!

Love your direct action OP.

Well done, Nigel.

Sorry to hear about the literal violence you just experienced in being denied your identity and being repeatedly misgendered. Can you imagine if he was dealing with a GameStop It’s MA’AM! I hope you complete a hate crime reporting incident form.

His responses just emphasize the cognitive dissonance the “training” actually educates one to do. He can’t face any common sense or practical situation as “that just would not happen”. What is he going to do when a JY type shows up wanting access to the women’s as “I am a women”? Is he going to try and convince the girls and women that they should not worry, JY is ashamed of his body?

I wonder if after your visit he went on to do some further research and realize that no GRC is required - even cross dressers are welcome to use the change room that aligns with their...clothing....how ridiculous - and you can’t tell people they aren’t trans if they say they are.

We need a McMan Friday.

Well done notnige keep us updated. The manager sounds rather inept and got what he deserved 😂😂😂

I also think it has put these staff people in a really difficult position to give them this horrible training and then expect them to work within stupid policies.
Somehow, they all need to realise how really inadequate the training was. I think challenging them can help, though I wonder about protests where people do things like invade the mens rooms. I think that they might just tend to dismiss that as being the result of political action, or someone being disingenuous, not really about bad policy, if that makes sense?

But the policy itself is so bad - the cross dressing element for example. Someone doesn't even have to be trans in the sense they have learned, and I really wonder what the response would be to someone who is just a crossdresser.
One thing that strikes me though is that people have become so used to training of all kinds from various advocacy organisations, and they have been taught that they aren't really supposed to question it. There used to be a man here who did training on racism, particularly around the schools, and he was terrible - he said all kinds of crazy untrue things - probably out of real ignorance rather than ill-intent, but not helpful or useful. But all kinds of young people were told that they needed to simply accept his lived experience and knowledge or they were racists.

This is a great way to highlight the absurdity of this policy. If enough front line staff numbers are forced to engage with these issues like this they will eventually be able to raise it as unworkable. But they need to see it to know. So be polite and don’t mistreat front line staff - but make them think.

Well done OP.
I think we all need to start repeatedly asking these awkward questions to front line staff and putting on some pressure about how these policies work in real life.

Why did he deny the policy exists when it’s on their website? Very odd.

Nigel, thanks so much for doing this. I was going to say it must have taken real balls but, erm, well, you know what I mean . You’ve got ovaries of steel, Nige!

Please keep us updated.

I feel sorry for the staff who have to deal with this. The training is poor, so they think they've been trained, and have been told all sorts of things 'never happen' if they have asked questions about difficult scenarios.

This manager did a poor job, though, because he couldn't remain calm and polite when faced with a calm, polite customer who was more knowledgeable than him. As the manager, he probably did feel a bit cornered, because there was nobody higher up that he could pass the problem on to (other than a phone number for the legal team), and he clearly didn't have a clue.

The general lack of discussion and the demand that anyone who asks questions is just told to 'educate yourself' with shouts of transphobia at anyone who gets something 'wrong' just makes the whole situation even worse.

Is anyone other than Stonewall/Mermaids/GIRES etc doing any training in this area? Because we clearly need people who actually understand the law and safeguarding to do this training.

I also feel sorry for the staff, the majority of whom won't have a clue about what the rules are supposed to be.

But, better that staff are inconvenienced than a woman or child assaulted.

Am I'm afraid that I don't have much faith in staff turning away men who they suspect have ill intent. They'll just hope that the men don't do anything, rather than risk their jobs challenging him.

Two leisure centre staff allowed a man who was masturbating on a baby change mat with the door open, to leave the premises after a woman reported him.

www.echo-news.co.uk/news/16884689.police-probe-launched-to-trace-pool-pervert/

So even if you do report it, the staff still won't do anything.

And obviously the lack of action from staff makes it an even more attractive environment for perverts.

I am actually standing up in my living room clapping you OP, Bloody well done!

Well done, OP. Sounds like you were measured and calm throughout.

I do feel for the front line staff. They've been told what policy is and they are the ones that have to enforce it, deal with all the flak while maintaining a polite front. The people in power who've come up with all the nonsensical policy will be safely shut away in upstairs offices somewhere and never, ever have to deal with the bloke wanking in the ladies' changing room.

I don't mean the manager - he should have been and could have been honest from the start. Sounds like he only got defensive because he was stuck in a daft position of his own making.

Good luck with the legal department. I wonder if my own LA has policy on this ...

Even if, even if you believed all that, because you'd been told. Your first question would still be, well how can I tell the difference between them and someone who's faking it?

You certainly shouldn't be surprised when someone comes along who doesn't fit the description you've been given. And you definitely shouldn't lie to them.