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Original poster

My complaint to Glasgow Life re sports centres

238 replies

ImNotNigel · 23/04/2019 22:08

( NC for obvious reasons )

Glasgow Life are the Council organisation that run sports centres in Glasgow. They have been in the papers about their policy of allowing men into women only facilities

www.heraldscotland.com/news/17588777.cross-dress-males-to-be-allowed-in-women-only-gym-sessions-in-glasgow/?ref=twtrec

I am a member so I went tonight to complaint to the manager at the local centre. He was a young man of around 30.

It took about 5 mins of patient questioning from me for him to admit it was indeed council policy. He kept maintaining that there were no mixed sex or unisex facilities, but eventually he acknowledged it.

So I asked him if I could go right then and use the male changing room, ( I’m an XX person for the avoidance of doubt ).

He told me no, because I wasn’t “going through the process of gender change”. Now the council policy specifically says this is not required, but decided not to argue this further.

I told him that I indentified as agender, which counted as trans. He looked very perplexed by this, and questioned me for another 5 mins, arguing that I wasn’t. Although he agreed that if I was, I could use the Male changing room.

He waxed lyrical about the individual cubicles for showers and changing ( within the Male changing room ). I checked that their was no requirement on me ( since I was identifying as male tonight ) to use these and I could walk around naked in the men’s changing room if I wanted to, and would this be fine.

He said “ We were told in our training that that would never happen, because you would be ashamed of your body”. So I asked if he was suggesting that I should be ashamed of my body.

He knew he was in a hole but he kept on digging.

Then he went for the sympathy vote, pointlessly appealing to my female socialisation . He tilted his head and declared

“ You know it’s hard for people like you and me to understand what it feels like to be trans and how hard it must be. So the council has to allowed them access, it’s the law”.

[ feeble attempt at forced teaming there too ]

I reminded him that I was trans myself and asked which law. He replied “ Well you know more that me as you have read up on it “ .

I asked about their Equality Impact Assessment and the about the effects on other centre users, who didn’t want to share showers and changing areas with a person of the opposite sex. He said “ Well they wouldn’t be the opposite sex would they ? “.

I guessed that was in his training too.

By the end he was losing his temper, so ( perhaps wisely ) said “ I’m not talking to you anymore, you need to speak to someone in legal”.

He went to reception to look up a number and said to his two female colleagues ( who were trying not to snigger ) “ For fucks sake, now she’s telling me she’s trans “.

I said “ I can’t believe you are questioning my gender identity. Please stop saying that, it’s very offensive “.

He threw a paper at me with a number and stormed off.

It was entertaining but rather unsatisfactory. I think I can guess who did their training.

So it’s the Council Legal Services tomorrow, that should be better.

And of course I will complain about being told that I’m not trans. Repeatedly.

I guess the training didn’t cover that bit.

OP posts:
Ineedacupofteadesperately · 26/04/2019 18:34

He replied that we don’t have to tell you.

That is terrifying. Really? When it comes to parents making decisions about their children? Really? I am flabbergasted.

Original poster
ImNotNigel · 26/04/2019 18:30

That’s an excellent point about safety Ineedacupofteadesperately.

And yes, people are being lied to. I told the manager that when we signed up our children for GL membership, we were not told that the changing areas and showers were mixed sex.

He replied that we don’t have to tell you.

The arrogance is staggering.

I’d love to see the reaction if Glasgow city council suggested that all school toilets/ changing rooms should now be open to any member of the public of either sex to use as they wished. But it’s fine when it’s sports centres.

OP posts:
Ineedacupofteadesperately · 26/04/2019 18:05

Of course, most people don't know that changing rooms are segregated by gender not sex and are mixed sex, because they still think 'woman' and 'man' mean sex not gender.

This is how they get away with it. Because people are, in essence, being lied to by these organisations and are unaware.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 26/04/2019 18:03

Brilliant work OP.

Manfriday had the right idea.

Also, any transperson with male biology using the women's changing rooms is by definition someone who gives absolutely no shits about the boundaries and consent of women and girls. Surely no trans person can be unaware now that some women and young girls object.

So, by definition any trans person there gives no shits if a pubescent young girl would feel scared or uncomfortable by their presence.

This is why Miranda self-excludes - because he understands this and gives a shit.

Given this is the case, the mens is surely safer. After all, as we are so often told, NAMALT - not all men want to override the consent and boundaries of women and girls. All the ones who aren't like that will be in the mens now. They'll both be mixed sex, but one mixed sex option will be considerably safer than the other.

youllhavehadyourtea · 26/04/2019 17:36

Batshit. What on earth do they think they're trying to prove?

Apaprntly this instruction went out yesterday, from Glasgow Life to all staff linking to the statement they made - retweet if you use Twitter.

Back foot or what?

InTheHeatofLisbon · 26/04/2019 16:53

You know I think you're on to something, talking about using the men's changing rooms. If we all, en masse, began encroaching on male spaces and eroding men's rights to privacy I'm fairly sure that policy would be ditched like a hot tattie!

I can feel a wee visit to a few places in Glasgow coming on this weekend with a few female friends Grin (once I've been to the football where thankfully the toilets ARE still segregated by sex)

Ereshkigal · 26/04/2019 16:47

retweet - on their own personal twitter accounts? wtf??!!

Batshit. What on earth do they think they're trying to prove?

Original poster
ImNotNigel · 26/04/2019 16:12

I thought that too Tunnocks. Which is why I decided to complain in principle about the policy rather than one individual or their actions. And since I’ve committed no crime, it can’t be a hate crime.

And since I’m trans, I’m now apparently one of the most opressed minorities in the country. Which is a nice change.

OP posts:
Original poster
ImNotNigel · 26/04/2019 16:06

Could I also point out that Glasgow Life also run museums in Glasgow , such as Kelvingrove Art Galleries and the Transport Museum. Lots of people from outside Glasgow use these.

Also Arts venues like the City Halls.

I know these have no shower and changing facilities, but many visitors like to encounter a person of the opposite sex in the toilets there. They have cubicles which do not extend to the floor and ceiling.

OP posts:
Tunnockswafer · 26/04/2019 16:06

It’s not surprising there are few complaints when you know what they plan to do if you complain.

Melroses · 26/04/2019 16:00

they told me that they have received very few complaints this week about this

How many do they want? Is there some sort of numerical threshold for common sense and compliance with the law?

youllhavehadyourtea · 26/04/2019 15:21

Meanwhile all GL staff have been asked to retweet this statement regarding the policy

www.glasgowlife.org.uk/news/statement-regarding-equal-access-to-sport-facilities

retweet - on their own personal twitter accounts? wtf??!!

AncientLights · 26/04/2019 15:21

If they've had very few complaints so far, can that be because not many people know about it or have thought through the implications? This is the way this stuff seems to be expected to work: agitate for change from within, get very few supporters to do whatever it is so people think it's of little consequence to them, get laws changed and then, when the law is passed and women's changing rooms are full of wanking perverts it's too late to complain.

youllhavehadyourtea · 26/04/2019 15:13

they told me that they have received very few complaints this week about this

Of course they did.
Minimise, minimise, minimise.

Original poster
ImNotNigel · 26/04/2019 15:04

Update - my complaint is being dealt with by a manager at Glasgow Life HQ. So far they have been polite and helpful. I’ll let you know if / when there is a substantive outcome.

However, they told me that they have received very few complaints this week about this. Which is suprising , because it affects

  1. All children who attend Glasgow area school ( including private schools ) , because they use GL facilities for sports events . And their parents of course .
  1. Everyone who teaches at a Glasgow area school ( including private schools ) , because this will have to be factored into their risk assessment
  1. All Glasgow life members
  1. Everyone who lives or works in the wider Glasgow area, who can use the GL sports facilities on a pay as you go basis. So that will include residents of north and south Lanarkshire and east and west Dumbartonshire and perhaps even north and east Ayrshire.

So if you know of anyone in these groups who wishes to comment on the GL policy, please encourage them to call the Council complaints line

0141 287 8977

Or they can complete an online for here.

www.glasgowlife.org.uk/contact-us/leave-a-comment

OP posts:
ProbablyShouldntbut · 26/04/2019 14:25

I asked about their Equality Impact Assessment and the about the effects on other centre users, who didn’t want to share showers and changing areas with a person of the opposite sex.

FYI when the new policy was reported on Tuesday I stuck in a Freedom of Information request for the Equalities Impact Assessment.

But well done you - that was fabulous.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 25/04/2019 19:45

I’m jot sure if I do feel sorry for staff. So many seem to swallow the nonsense hook, line and sinker and don’t actually think to question it or raise practical arguments with whoever is doing the training.

How do we know a male bodied person is a genuine ‘trans’?
How do we define man and woman?
Who decided who is and who isn’t a woman?
How do we act in a situation where a woman is distraught by a male in the women’s changing room flashing?
How can we endure female safety when we cannot question males in a female area?
WHAT IS THE LAW?

But then I ask questions when I need to do my job.

Michelleoftheresistance · 25/04/2019 19:28

I do actually feel a bit sorry for the frontline staff dealing with this shit.

Unfortunately, it will be staff constantly faced with incidents and customer reactions who put the pressure on their management that will make them have a re think. So no, it's important that women don't not talk to staff or just silently self exclude because of socialisation to be nice and to consider the feelings and needs of staff. There are plenty of calm ways to have that conversation without becoming unbalanced or screaming abuse or having a tantrum. There are also plenty of TRAs fully prepared- as we know from plenty of evidence - to go nuclear if displeased, without giving the faintest consideration to what it does to staff or to the customers around them.

As the advice is so often given to a woman on the receiving end of a toxic relative that her partner is bent on placating because the kick off is so scary, so extreme and uncomfortable to face - stop being the easy one to upset. Stop allowing poor behaviour to punish everyone into compliance.

truthisarevolutionaryact · 25/04/2019 17:56

OP, Maybe it's worth asking if there are any safeguarding concerns ? As the centre is expecting girls to share the changing rooms and showers with cross dressing males, how will they ensure the safety of 12 year old girls?

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 25/04/2019 17:52

Wow the manhager best educate himself quickly really, if he comes face to face with one of the stunning and brave crossdressers the policy specifically mentions and snorts and laughs about this person being 'trans' the wrath faced is likely to be immense.

Its always women being told their 'identity' isn't valid too isn't it. 'Genderfree' is not right, you are cis!!! But, don't tell anyone their identity, they know it better than you and it can be anything and noone would ever lie.

AnyOldPrion · 25/04/2019 17:50

”I can understand that on a sex/gender level the poster is "correct" but FFS can males not handle sanitary products (psychologically or literally)??”

I assumed it meant ask at the desk, but if there’s a man on the desk and you aren’t comfortable, then you can approach any female member of staff.

ReSistingPink · 25/04/2019 17:48

@pombear

Agender presupposes a belief in gender

Genderfree does not

They are not equivalent or interchangeable.

Consider agender comparable to being agnostic and genderfree being like atheism.

youllhavehadyourtea · 25/04/2019 17:24

Was lidtening to First Minister's Questions today on the radio, about the free San Pro bill ( proposer Monica Lennon)

They managed to discuss it without mentioning Women and Girls once. it was all - people, and anyone.

youllhavehadyourtea · 25/04/2019 17:21

This was in the toilet in Glasgow transport museum today.

It's a Glasgow Life venue. Riverside Mueum.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 25/04/2019 14:47

At my college there’s a sign in the ladies loos that goes on about how much ‘people’ spend on Sanpro (‘£6 a month - that’s almost £77 a year’)

My sharpie was poised but I just didn’t know where to start!