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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My complaint to Glasgow Life re sports centres

238 replies

ImNotNigel · 23/04/2019 22:08

( NC for obvious reasons )

Glasgow Life are the Council organisation that run sports centres in Glasgow. They have been in the papers about their policy of allowing men into women only facilities

www.heraldscotland.com/news/17588777.cross-dress-males-to-be-allowed-in-women-only-gym-sessions-in-glasgow/?ref=twtrec

I am a member so I went tonight to complaint to the manager at the local centre. He was a young man of around 30.

It took about 5 mins of patient questioning from me for him to admit it was indeed council policy. He kept maintaining that there were no mixed sex or unisex facilities, but eventually he acknowledged it.

So I asked him if I could go right then and use the male changing room, ( I’m an XX person for the avoidance of doubt ).

He told me no, because I wasn’t “going through the process of gender change”. Now the council policy specifically says this is not required, but decided not to argue this further.

I told him that I indentified as agender, which counted as trans. He looked very perplexed by this, and questioned me for another 5 mins, arguing that I wasn’t. Although he agreed that if I was, I could use the Male changing room.

He waxed lyrical about the individual cubicles for showers and changing ( within the Male changing room ). I checked that their was no requirement on me ( since I was identifying as male tonight ) to use these and I could walk around naked in the men’s changing room if I wanted to, and would this be fine.

He said “ We were told in our training that that would never happen, because you would be ashamed of your body”. So I asked if he was suggesting that I should be ashamed of my body.

He knew he was in a hole but he kept on digging.

Then he went for the sympathy vote, pointlessly appealing to my female socialisation . He tilted his head and declared

“ You know it’s hard for people like you and me to understand what it feels like to be trans and how hard it must be. So the council has to allowed them access, it’s the law”.

[ feeble attempt at forced teaming there too ]

I reminded him that I was trans myself and asked which law. He replied “ Well you know more that me as you have read up on it “ .

I asked about their Equality Impact Assessment and the about the effects on other centre users, who didn’t want to share showers and changing areas with a person of the opposite sex. He said “ Well they wouldn’t be the opposite sex would they ? “.

I guessed that was in his training too.

By the end he was losing his temper, so ( perhaps wisely ) said “ I’m not talking to you anymore, you need to speak to someone in legal”.

He went to reception to look up a number and said to his two female colleagues ( who were trying not to snigger ) “ For fucks sake, now she’s telling me she’s trans “.

I said “ I can’t believe you are questioning my gender identity. Please stop saying that, it’s very offensive “.

He threw a paper at me with a number and stormed off.

It was entertaining but rather unsatisfactory. I think I can guess who did their training.

So it’s the Council Legal Services tomorrow, that should be better.

And of course I will complain about being told that I’m not trans. Repeatedly.

I guess the training didn’t cover that bit.

OP posts:
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Orchidoptic · 06/05/2019 19:00

Re: women presenting as male. Took lo to city and we were talking about footwear. We stood there and looked at ladies feet as they were walking in the distance. Out of about a dozen, one lady was wearing heels. We’re all doing female wrong, it seems!
(Yes, I know it was an odd lesson, but it made lo think)

BabyDueDecember2019 · 05/05/2019 20:06

StarStarStar

ImNotNigel · 04/05/2019 17:55

On the day I made my complaint I was presenting as male, wearing navy top, navy trousers and brown boots. I have no idea why the sports centre manager told me I “ had not gone through a gender change “.

OP posts:
scotsheather · 04/05/2019 15:56

Huge emphasis on how one 'presents' a certain gender. Exactly what does this mean? So if I arrive to change in jeans and a shirt with short hair, am I 'presenting' as female.

NinaMimi · 04/05/2019 12:23

I think it’s sad if anyone is ashamed by their body. However I’m confused - if you were ashamed of having male parts how could you go swimming? I sometimes feel self conscious when I walk out in my bikini and generally I have a positive image. You can’t hide anything unless you’re wearing trunks which women never wear.

ScottishWomen · 04/05/2019 11:03

Thank you AnyoldPrion, here is a link to my original twitter thread where I initially exposed the details of the Policy.

twitter.com/scottish_women/status/1118577158136504320?s=21

It's brilliant that The Herald ran with the story as it has opened the eyes for many who had up until now been completely unaware of these things happening.

And thank you ImnotNigel for making a complaint, this is what we need to do to make real change happen.

littlbrowndog · 03/05/2019 21:19

As is Jane fae the feminist. 😕😕

littlbrowndog · 03/05/2019 21:18

Yeah rowan. James Morton. Grifting as ever
Whittle grifting

R0wantrees · 03/05/2019 20:38

Mind, I guess doing it stealth, as TRAs have done so far..has been quite sucessful. Just shout down any issues as terf lies, claim it never happens, while rewriting policies based on actual blatant lies, sponsored by once reputable charties such as stonewall. I guess if they get round the majority with this stealth, then it will be much harder for businesses/councils/whatever to go back on. Its going to take an almighty legal case to go back on it all I think.

Formation & success of Press For Change including the Gender Recognition Act 2004 discussed in Guardian article (incudes interviews with Stephen Whittle & Christine Burns from P4C)

(extract)
"Much of their campaigning remained on the quiet. The passage of the 2004 law to give trans people legal status was "remarkable," says [Christine] Burns, because "the government was able to pass an entire act in parliament without anyone throwing a fit in the press". In popular culture, the activists became more forthcoming in their attempts to increase popular understanding of trans issues." (continues)

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/22/voices-from-trans-community-prejudice

Re Bex Stinson (Head of Trans Equality Stonewall) at 2018 Westminster Social Policy Forum, 'Next Steps For Trans Equality:

Pratchet (attending) wrote Fri 29-Jun-18
"Well they'll know it's over. Bex Stinson was asked how they got Scotland to cave so quickly and said it was because they had private conversation in private rooms with the people who provide services, not people who use them. I mean, that's how brazen and confident they were, to come out and say that and not think there's anything bad about it. That is over. Women are watching."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3268237-Westminster-Social-Policy-forum-today-Next-steps-for-transgender-Equality-WSPFEvents?pg=2

See also comments by James Morton about Scottish policy successes/tactics at Jane Fae's TRA conference, 'We're Still Here':

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3398737-We-re-Still-Here-Conference-8th-September-A-report-from-the-inside

popehilarious · 03/05/2019 12:19

Vicky and Notnigel, great work.

happyon · 03/05/2019 08:57

Thank you so much Nigel. Brilliant work.

AnyOldPrion · 03/05/2019 07:38

Thanks so much ImNotNigel.

”it wasn’t meant to be a public document”.

Hmm

The utter lack of professionalism is eye opening. No wonder devious TRAs are running rings around these people.

Heartening to see women objecting once again, and having an effect. So frustrating that the undercover tactics continue to be successful.

Thanks also to the Herald, and to the unsung heroine that discovered this policy and brought it to the attention of the paper.

50shadesofgreyrock · 03/05/2019 06:19

Stealth is Stephen Whittle’s mandate. PfC have been working behind the scenes to change everything by stealth for years. We can’t let them. There can be no stealth. Sunlight sunlight sunlight. Ask ALL the questions, investigate all the policies, Challenge all the stealth.
Superstar, Nige.

GirlDownUnder · 03/05/2019 04:06

ImNotNigel but you do rock! Brew

Genderfreelass · 02/05/2019 20:40

Vickyeadie insurance company could be a good angle, well done. The insurance will surely be invalid if proper assessments and notification etc has not been carried out.

UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea · 02/05/2019 20:30

@VickyEadie New anonymous profile on Twitter and go for it?

TheInebriati · 02/05/2019 17:11

This is the best news I've heard in weeks, massive well done for having the bottle to speak out Star

VickyEadie · 02/05/2019 15:59

UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea

Too 'outing' for me!

UnexpectedItemInShaggingArea · 02/05/2019 15:50

@VickyEadie name and shame?

VickyEadie · 02/05/2019 15:40

My local council, which runs 4 gyms, has brought in their 'men who identify as women can use the women's changing rooms' policy by stealth, too.

In my now long-running discussions with them, I've pointed out that not informing women members that they might find a man, complete with penis, in their changing rooms is not only a safeguarding error, it denies those women the opportunity (a) to take appropriate action to safeguard themselves and (b) to object to this policy.

I've already had them admit they have not carried out risk assessments. I'm waiting for them to admit they did no equalities impact assessments, too.

I've pointed out that their insurers (whose name I have) might have something to say about the lack of both types of assessment. I've sent them links to recent cases, including the one in America where a lawsuit is being brought against Planet Fitness for failing to inform women members that men were being allowed into their facilities..

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 02/05/2019 02:30

Mind, I guess doing it stealth, as TRAs have done so far..has been quite sucessful. Just shout down any issues as terf lies, claim it never happens, while rewriting policies based on actual blatant lies, sponsored by once reputable charties such as stonewall. I guess if they get round the majority with this stealth, then it will be much harder for businesses/councils/whatever to go back on. Its going to take an almighty legal case to go back on it all I think.

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 02/05/2019 02:28

e need to rewrite it - it wasn’t meant to be a public document”.

Of course it wasn't.

All that will happen from now on is they will be more careful about whats public, and in their wording. It will be watered down to 'transgender people' and hopes will be made that most of the public do not know that transgender includes crossdressers. No way will it ever be so blatant again.

Great work OP. Hopefully this introduces a total u-turn, but I fear it will just give other businesses a lesson in how to correctly gaslight women. Though tbh, that seems counter priductive to me as regardless of how things are written, women WILL notice when they come face to face with their first pisstaker.

Datun · 02/05/2019 00:17

ImNotNigel

I have now spoken to several officials from the Council and its clear to me that theres a huge gulf between

- the people the staff think this policy applies to = the “genuine” dysphoric trans woman who has socially and probably medically “transitioned” , has a GRC and no desire to draw attention to themselves and ;

- the people it actually applies to ( as written ) = everyone.

Nailed it Nige.

And, of course, the distinction (or lack of distinction), applies across the board in every single situation.

Because there is no such thing as being able to change sex. Therefore, anyone and everyone, can say some magic words. The most heinous predator in the land, with I'm a heinous predator tattooed across their forehead, can say it, and no one can contradict them.

Bloody well done. ⭐️

ScrimshawTheSecond · 01/05/2019 22:50

Star, OP

Michelleoftheresistance · 01/05/2019 22:20

I think this has already happened in reverse Apollo

The political trans lobby has got policies written on their adapted version of the Equality Act. It's been complaints from women, many of whom will have pointed out the actual act and its implications, that have made them hastily start to review said policies.

On the other thread, behold the joy of Joanna Cherry flat out saying to a Twitter rep, why have you removed 'sex' from protected characteristics list, as stated by law, and replaced it with gender? And the twitter rep flounders all over the place not wanting to admit it.

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