I thought I couldn't be shocked anymore (No Outsiders programme)

being a gay child does not lead to drug prescriptions and surgery that can render you sterile. It does not endorse harmful sexist stereotypes.

Teaching transgender ideology as if it were established fact can lead to these things.

I would be very unhappy if transgender ideology were being pushed in my DCs schools.

"Teachers need adequate time to properly explore those ideas in the classroom, and appropriate training to support individual teenagers who are struggling with their emerging sexualities. 13 and up, I would imagine.
Familiarity with the views of the various cultural groups represented in the specific school seems crucial too."

Realistically, the chances are most school teachers are not prepared to teach in any real detail about the views on sexuality of various religions that they are not very familiar with. I'm not sure they really could be, or why they should be. Not to say it would not be good for teachers to have some familiarity, but chances are young people will have to learn those elements from parents and religious leaders.

All children deserve to feel safe and protected in school. ALL children.

That’s why needs have to be carefully balanced, and equality impact assessments must be done.

Someone wiser than me summed up a key problem with no outsiders materials on another thread (even before we came to learn its roots in queer theory which imho is not a suitable basis for a programme aimed at young kids - and there is no evidence that the programme over time has moved away from its roots in that theory).
The LG stuff is about telling children that other types families exist. Factual and another big deal - especially in the hands of a good teacher. The T stuff is telling children that their gender may not match their sex and so makes it about them as an individual. A good way to sow unease and dissatisfaction in a developing mind. Even a good teacher would struggle to get this across without spouting nonsense. Unnecessary and dangerous.

I have read the thread and the blog post which is being referenced. Trans children come under the LGBT banner and are at even more risk of suicide than other LBGT youth, surely they too deserve to feel safe and accepted in their school?

Kat you need to read the article at the start of this thread - it’s an in-depth analysis of the actual No Outsiders material, and it really isn’t the accurate, even handed teaching of all the protected characteristics that we’d both like it to be :/

There has been little or no opposition on this thread to factual age appropriate teaching about the fact that some people are in same sex relationships KatTapilla. I suggest you go back and read the thread, as your post doesn't actually make much sense in the context of the discussion

The Muslim parents were concerned that No Outsiders claims it’s ok to be gay AND Muslim, which is likely at odd with what children are being taught at many Mosques.

If the primary age teaching stays at ‘some families have 2 mummies/2 daddies’ then there is no conflict, but the sad fact is, that children who grow up to be gay in conservative religious families may find themselves with some really heartbreaking decisions to make as adults. Complaints in north London have reportedly come from the Jewish community. Manchester complaints came from lots of religious groups, including Catholics.

This doesn’t mean schools shouldn’t teach that being gay is (rightfully) protected against discrimination under U.K. law, but it does mean it has to wait until kids have the capacity to balance a quite complex set of ideas and emotions. Teachers need adequate time to properly explore those ideas in the classroom, and appropriate training to support individual teenagers who are struggling with their emerging sexualities. 13 and up, I would imagine.
Familiarity with the views of the various cultural groups represented in the specific school seems crucial too.

It certainly shouldn’t be attempted at key stage 1 or 2, and via a bought- in set of teaching plans written by someone who has so little grasp of good safeguarding practice and equalities law that they have been fired for teaching material that had been explicitly rejected by the governing body.

Modern Britain is multicultural - no need to make life even harder for those kids who are negotiating two quite different worlds.

I’m an atheist so I personally think that all complaints made that originate from teachings of invisible sky pixies are nonsense, but religious beliefs are also protected in U.K. law, and escalating this conflict will only lead to further polarisation and fuck knows those closeted gay teens will suffer if they are removed from mainstream secular schools because their parents feel disrespected.

Wherever protected characteristics collide, we have to do proper impact assessments and proceed carefully and cautiously.

Since this program covers other topics like race, religion, age and disability as well as LGBT issues, it seems unlikely that children will be learning about gay or trans issues for more than one or two lessons a year, hardly enough time to somehow ‘convince’ a bunch of 7 year olds into becoming gay or trans, even if that was possible?
Since discussing LGBT issues in schools was illegal until 2003 under Section 28 (within close memory for many teachers), putting in place new programs that actively force discussion of LGBT issues in schools is actually incredibly necessary to change the culture within schools. Age appropriateness has been considered in the No Outsiders program, with kids learning about these topics through children’s books like ‘And Tango Makes Three’, a book about two gay penguins.
According to the Centre for Disease Control and Prevention (cdc.gov) nearly 30% of LGBT youth had attempted suicide, compared to 6% of their heterosexual peers. This can be reduced by “creating safe and supportive school environments for all students, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity.” Surely learning about LGBT issues in school from a young age is the best way of letting children know that they are safe and supported?

The Left was actually fine with Muslims when they were simply being homophobic; it’s only now they sense transphobia that they are shouting ‘Bigot!’

Goodness me, ADropof Misguided Feminists and Muslim bigots unite, is it? No Outsiders is one big love fest? All outsiders celebrated equally..

Or are both parties, perhaps legitimately, concerned about the welfare and the wellbeing of children?

I also think the fact that many Muslim women are housewives perhaps gave them more time and opportunity to challenge the content of the programme than others.

good grief. if something is invidious shite and also some homophobic people don't like it because of their homophobia, does that mean I'm not allowed to think it's invidious shite?

"And posters saying “I just want kids taught the 3 R’s and nothing else” – so you think it’s OK if sexism and misogyny in children is perpetuated and not challenged? Or is it just anti-homophobia you object to?"

I think this comes down to, do you actually want freedom of thought and religion and conscience, or do you not? You really can't have it both ways with pluralism. Secularism is really just a kind of space, it has no values of its own, there is no such thing as a secular value that can be taught to everyone as if it's neutral. The closest thing is a shared value among people with various beliefs, be they religious or not. If you have significant controversy, it's tricky to claim something is a real shared value.

We are far too prepared to throw around the word bigotry as well. A different set of ideas about something are not necessarily bigotry. They might be really different, we might think their logic is flawed or disagree with their facts. We might even think they are incompatible with our societies ideals and can't be part of a functioning society, (though that idea in any context seems to be poo-pooed by progressive at the moment.) That doesn't make it bigotry any more than saying a man cannot become a woman is bigotry. That has become a term that is just used to avoid really responding to what people are saying.

I'm not sure how we became so uncomfortable with understanding the logic and thinking behind ideas that we may not embrace.

ADropofReality
The opposition to No Outsiders came from homophobic religious bigots, not from a bunch of gender-critical feminists

The opposition to No Outsiders is from both homophobic religious groups and gender critical feminists. This has been discussed on here before. Much of the mainstream media likes to frame this as 'anti-LGBT' and smear us as homophobic, when nothing could be further from the truth.

Have you read the posts on this thread about the origins of No Outsiders and using ideas from queer theory in primary classrooms? Do you not find any of that disturbing?

ADropofReality

I want schools to challenge sexism, misogyny and homophobia.

I want religion taught in schools as a belief system and not as fact. I want tolerance for other people’s beliefs taught.

I believe strongly in safeguarding and inclusion.

I also happen to think ‘No Outsiders’ is shite. I think Andrew Moffat misrepresents the Equalities Act in the same way he misrepresented an email telling him ‘he won’t last long’ as a death threat.

Am I allowed to hold all those opinions?

Much as Mumsnet is right to oppose the trans agenda, the opposition to No Outsiders did not come from gender-criticial feminists or by anyone else concerned by the TRA agenda, it came from bigoted Muslim parents in a heavily Muslim area of Birmingham who did not want it being taught that it was ok to be gay and who wanted a version of section 28 being brought back.

I happen to be involved in politics in a place far away from Birmingham and the other day I and some others were interviewing candidates for a party position. One of the candidates inadvertently disclosed he was gay. During the Q&A, quick as a flash, a Muslim member of the panel asked the question (which he had not asked of any other candidate) “The community is very concerned about promoting gay lifestyles in schools, what will you do about it?”. It was clear that by “the community” was meant the Muslim community and that the question had been provoked by what was going on in Birmingham.

If what had happened in Birmingham had been done by evangelical Christians this site and many others would be all over them with ridicule and dismay.

But (correct) opposition to the trans agenda has gone so deep here that you’re prepared to allow religious bigots to bring back section 28 by force majeure in schools where they make up a majority of the parent body. Jesus Christ. And do you all want it taught that families consist of Daddy (goes out to work), Mummy (stays home and bakes cakes) and 2.4 children? Because that’s where you’re going.

I am a gay man and I disagree as much as anyone with the idea someone with a penis can become a woman, but that is no reason to allow religiously-motivated homophobia to dictate how schools teach PSHE. The opposition to No Outsiders came from homophobic religious bigots, not from a bunch of gender-critical feminists FFS.

And posters saying “I just want kids taught the 3 R’s and nothing else” – so you think it’s OK if sexism and misogyny in children is perpetuated and not challenged? Or is it just anti-homophobia you object to?

This project was never about acceptance of others who are different. It was always about creating confusion in children's minds about what is normal and acceptable and what isn't. I can only speculate as to why they might want to do this.

I think you have summed it up.

From the Birmingham Mail - 'My child came home and told me am I OK to be a boy? It's confusing children about sexuality.'

In fact that whole Birmingham Mail article is worth sharing, to show how No Outsiders was presented to parents.

In fact that article is worth reading, to show what lies religious homophobes will tell to smear a campaign teaching it's ok to be gay. Religious homophobes believe a boy who is gay literally is a girl (or rather, effeminate, or non-masculine: guess what? Homophobes often turn out to be raging sexists too), so they will twist "it's ok to be a gay boy" into "they're teaching our kids to question if it's ok to be a boy".

I would say that is not the child saying to the mother - I am a boy not a girl - she's asking the mother if it is ok to be a boy not a girl - I would interpret that as asking about not conforming to gender stereotypes as she is likely learning them from her parents.

So you're reading something into what she said that wasn't there. But if they had simply been taught at school that it was OK not to conform to stereotypes, but that it's impossible to change sex, why would she ask if it was 'OK to be a boy'? She would know that she couldn't, but that she could do the things boys do, or dress like them. So she would be more likely to say something like 'I want to dress like a boy', or 'I want to do the things boys do'.

So although we're both just guessing what she meant, your interpretation seems less likely.

Anyway, since you didn't seem to believe that children are being taught that they can can change sex, have you seen these "teaching materials" from GIRES?

www.gires.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Penguin-Story-Trans-Boy.pdf

Sorry OldCrone I've been away.
I would say that is not the child saying to the mother - I am a boy not a girl - she's asking the mother if it is ok to be a boy not a girl - I would interpret that as asking about not conforming to gender stereotypes as she is likely learning them from her parents.

I agree with fuckerys post.

Apart from the historic funding and brand link to that one seminar over a decade ago, is there any evidence that No Outsiders is using the curriculum to promote queer theory and sexual pleasure to primary aged children? Or how individual school teachers are presenting it?

Queer theory is closely rooted in BDSM, the movement to normalise male violence in sex.

This weird conflation of adherence to queer theory and fighting homophobia

I don’t think the two are linked at all, but the writer of that extract seems to believe one flows from the other

And there’s sexual norms and sexual norms

The idea that violence during sex is not normal

I’d like that to continue as a norm

Many of the things queer theory seeks to question or undermine do not seem particularly harmful to me

@OldCrone
Indeed, my friend told them that his private life was private. Which is true, pupils don't have a right to know about their teachers lives.

This is a book from the No Outsiders project.

Interrogating Heteronormativity in Primary Schools : The No Outsiders Project

"...the ESRC-funded No Outsiders research team explore and analyse central issues which permeate the team's challenge to gender conformity through primary education. The need for primary teachers and other professionals working with children to address equality in relation to sexual orientation and gender expression is becoming increasingly urgent in the light of recent changes in UK legislation...It explores key themes related to the project's work: silence and speaking out; faith and culture; leadership and role-modelling; personal and emotional investment; gay rights/liberal humanist and queer perspectives; safety and risk-taking; the possibility of a queer pedagogy; and intersections between queer theory and practice. This academic companion to the team's practice-focused book drawing on the project teachers' classroom work, "Undoing Homophobia in Primary Schools", will be essential reading for all those in primary education who are concerned to challenge this last bastion of inequality, as well as for students and researchers in sociology, cultural studies, queer studies and related fields where the underlying discourses shaping heteronormativity and gender conformity require urgent analysis in the move towards a fairer society."

A queer pedagogy???

From the article that clitherow linked to:

Queer theory is all about breaking down norms and institutions. From the idea that sexual norms are stupid and capitalist came the conclusion that most norms are stupid and antiquated.

Can someone explain to me why primary school children should be taught about this?