I thought I couldn't be shocked anymore (No Outsiders programme)

The thing that pisses me right off is the trans rights activists comparing transphobia with homophobia.

It’s not the same at all. For a start, lesbians, bisexuals and gay men don’t need “affirmative” surgery or a lifetime of hormones.

“Affirmative” surgery is mutilation, and the people who prosper are (American) doctors and Big Pharma, who will make squillions from the lifelong hormone therapy needed by transgender folk.

I fear for the next generation of butch lesbians. I fear they will not exist.

I missed out the vital US word in that post - those are US organisations, not UK

It’s ludicrous to claim that conservative religious people believe that a gay boy is literally a girl. I’ve never heard of anyone believing that let alone being a common view. It’s just another desperate attempt to portray religious people as uneducated and backward and thereby dismiss their valid concerns about what their children are learning. Just as desperate as the
efforts to twist the words of the mothers quoted in the article to suggest any meaning other than the clear and obvious one.
Gc feminists and conservative religious people differ on many issues but I’m sure the vast majority of us agree on not wanting harmful attitudes and content, like the queer theory mentioned on this thread, in our kids’ primary schools.

There is no screening for prostate cancer in the U.K.
www.nhs.uk/conditions/prostate-cancer/psa-testing/

You must be confusing the needs of transwomen with the needs transmen, Kat?

Transmen should consult with their GPs regarding screening programmes for women’s cancers.

OhhollyJesus -I’m
with you. I think schools are going way beyond their remit. Things like this just illustrate how underqualified they are to even try and get into all this at any age. Teach them school subjects, maths English biology re god forbid maybe a bit of art or even music! Even perhaps more than the 1 hour our lot get for p.e. I discuss anything else with my kids. They know about sex-
My kids have no use nor need for anything gender related at all. It serves no positive purpose. I also think it’s highly inappropriate for a teacher start talking about what their sexual persuasion is regardless of what it is- wtf ? Schools should be sticking to what they are good at. Because of the amount of worrying stuff like this I read I want to withdraw my children from lessons like this in school.

I completely agree with you Victoria. I agree that not conforming with what is expected of your gender does not make you transgender. A boy can feel like a boy while wearing a skirt. And I agree you cannot change your biological sex. For example, some trans women still need to access services for biological men like screenings for prostate cancer, which is why it is sometimes useful to make a medical distinction between sex and gender identity.

kattepilla of course every child should be supported and welcomed. But we also need to be honest in what we tell our children. Specifically:

Gender stereotypes are outdated and you don’t need to conform to them, boys can wear skirts and girls can play football,

Not feeling comfortable with the behaviours stereotypically associated with your sex is fine, and doesn’t mean you were born in the ‘wrong body’,

You can present yourself any way you like, and difference is welcome,

No one can change their biological sex,

Single sex spaces help people feel safe and private,

Men can love men, and women women, that’s absolutely normal,

Your body is private, and what you do with it is up to you, there is no need ever to feel guilty about it,

You need to respect other people’s physical boundaries, because otherwise they won’t feel safe,

Make other people feel welcome even if they seem different, because we’re all special and valuable,

Modern medicine is great, but you don’t need surgery or medicine if your body is healthy and you just don’t conform, because that’s society’s problem, not yours.

That appears to be very different from what the no outsiders programme has been teaching. And what has the programme achieved? Dissent, anger, and a lot of parents who have lost their trust in their school, and in secular society more generally. It is a gigantic, dishonest, divisive own goal which has probably hugely set back the cause of gay rights in the very community it purports to serve.

Of course, a lot of what’s in the list above is only needed because of the disinformation that’s already out there, about changing sex and the need to conform to stereotypes. We shouldn’t need to tell our children they cant change sex any more than we have to tell them the sun doesn’t go round the earth.

I would too, Bernard - in fact, I would expect the school to have contact with local religious and/or community leaders.

Goosefoot - I don’t expect school teachers to know the exact teachings of every faith, just to be able to sensitively explain that contemporary laws and religious morality aren’t necessarily aligned.

Ideally, they’d be able to lead a class discussion around ethics, equality and religious beliefs, and the source material would be available to interested parents on request.

My sister teaches A level Sociology, which is pretty much entirely sensitive topics and cultural conflicts - but that’s 16 plus and an optional subject. Completely different to teaching infants, obviously!

Kat - we are talking about the UK. CDC and crisisline are both organisations, regardless of how shaky your stats are.

And what's their source for that figure?

Although when I type in crisisline.org, there's no such website.

There was a lot of really excellent material associated with the original No Outsiders project, focusing on lesbian/gay families and on addressing gender stereotypes - I was friends with one of the participants in the project, and she shared some of the resources with me to use with my DDs (I'm a lesbian and they weren't getting any of the 'alternative families' thing at their school at the time). One of the activities she shared with me was a brilliant thing about how gender is constructed differently in other cultures, which really helped me explain to DDs how 'gender' keeps women in our place. I don't know about the entire programme, but I'm sad to see what looks like some good intentions and fantastic thinking and resources being co-opted by/lost to transgenderism.

In the same way "murder rate" doesn't include attempted murders.

Much as Mumsnet is right to oppose the trans agenda, the opposition to No Outsiders did not come from gender-criticial feminists or by anyone else concerned by the TRA agenda

Rubbish. It's been talked about on here many times - well before the Birmingham schools hit the headlines.

"In a school where 90% of the pupils are muslim I would expect teachers to have a good familiarity with the tenets of the faith"

Sure. I think though there is a real gap between knowing the tenants of a faith, and being able to give some real account of why they have that belief, how it fits into their theology. I think that would equally be true if it was a school that was 90% existentialists or something like that - it would be great to know where the families were coming from, but not so reasonable to expect teachers to really be able to teach the logic of the belief system.

To me, this suggests that what is done at schools has to kind of skirt the parental role.

You do realise that "suicide rate" means actually completed suicides, right?

That doesn't correlate to "risk of suicide". Please don't misrepresent the truth with transactivist propaganda.

For those asking for statistics on trans suicide rates, crisisline.org says '40 percent of those identifying as transgender have attempted suicide in their lifetime.'

Trans kids are a recent invention, created to prop up autogynephilia in much older men. It's a recent phenomenon.

Like it or not, it has an underlying ideology, which is what is being referred to here.

Using the phrase "transgender ideology" makes it seem like being trans is some sort of political choice. Trans kids exist already, whether or not they see themselves represented in school lessons. Teaching kids that there is no wrong way to be a man or a woman is surely a good message for kids, trans or not - boys can wear pink, girls can play football etc.

Trans children come under the LGBT banner and are at even more risk of suicide than other LBGT youth,

Not according to the figures I've seen.

That’s one short step away from paedophilia.

And one giant leap for manki...oh.

Fuck.

Typo - 'another big deal' should read 'not a big deal'

Trans children come under the LGBT banner and are at even more risk of suicide than other LBGT youth

Do you have statistics or a source for this?

In a school where 90% of the pupils are muslim I would expect teachers to have a good familiarity with the tenets of the faith