I thought I couldn't be shocked anymore (No Outsiders programme)

At the end of the day, five lessons a year can't sway your child's beliefs as much as whatever you tell them every day.

Maybe or maybe not, but what about the children who are not getting daily clear-cut explanations from parents?

What about the children who are already confused about their boundaries, for example? How are their needs being safeguarded by a course that places kindness and inclusion to others above ensuring that a child is able to say "no, I am not comfortable" with sharing my (intimate) spaces with someone of the opposite sex?

How does a programme work which seems to rely somewhat on continued conversations between parents and children, when for many reasons this does not always happen?

kids will at some point need to understand what being trans is

Is this the thread? The one where we finally have it explained to us what being trans is, without the usual circular definitions and stereotypes?

Oops... and an outsider on the basis of a gasp which could have been for any reason. I realise that Moffat did not label this child out loud. But the fact that he felt comfortable putting this in his book really does demonstrate a worrying issue which is that he is not attempting to understand the child or indeed any of the many reasons for a child's surprise. He is very quick to label a young child an outsider which is quite appalling to my mind.

I find this following bit from the No Outsiders book very concerning as I think that it demonstrates a serious lack of empathy and understanding by Andrew Moffat.

Moffat mentions visit to the school by Gareth Thomas, the Welsh rugby international who tells a whole school assembly that he was also gay, Moffat then says

“Great – gay people are welcome in our school! There was one audible gasp from a child in year 6 but otherwise there was no reaction at all, which was quite nice as it demonstrated to the shocked child that he was alone in his reaction; his homophobia made him the outsider.’”

So in his book about No Outsiders Andrew Moffat labels a child both homophobic and an outsi

I don't see hostility towards trans people on this forum, but it's unclear why children should be taught about 'being trans'. As Lang says, it's either a mental health condition (feeling that your perfectly healthy body is 'wrong'), or it's a fetish. Why do primary age children need to know about those things?

To be honest guys, I am no expert on this program. Nor am I a trans person or an expert on being trans. Neither are you, I would suspect.

I have been trying to stand up for trans people in this thread because it seems to me that there is a lot of hostility towards them on this forum. Something that perhaps could be taken care of by educating children that different types of people are valid and we should respect others?? Just a thought.

At the end of the day, five lessons a year can't sway your child's beliefs as much as whatever you tell them every day.

kids will at some point need to understand what being trans is

Yes, well, the truth about that is a) nobody is born in the wrong body and it's damaging to and grooming of children to tell them that they are, b) adults transition mostly for one of two reasons - they have a deep and abiding desire to be the opposite sex resulting in significant distress (aka gender dysphoria) or they get off on it (aka AGP/paraphilia).

Which very few women here feel is an appropriate inclusion in the primary school curriculum.

KatTapilla

Can you define exactly what you mean when you talk about 'being trans'? Just so that we can be sure we're all discussing the same thing.

The No Outsiders program is focused on presenting a very simplistic overview of a broad range of issues to children.

Did you have a hand in writing it? Or do you teach it?

It is perfectly possible to identify with a different gender to the one you were assigned at birth

Hi. Nobody is assigned a gender at birth. A tiny number of intersex people were assigned a sex at birth, but intersex people are still either male or female. Not one human has ever changed sex, this is impossible and teachers should not be lying to children about this. Intersex people have asked that their situation is not co-opted to be used to trans kids, so if you could respect that, thanks.

kids will at some point need to understand what being trans is.

And what would that be then?

I also think that debating the more nuanced areas of being trans, such as different types of gender dysphoria, is a red herring.
The No Outsiders program is focused on presenting a very simplistic overview of a broad range of issues to children. Just as it doesn't claim to explain all the intricacies of issues such as race, it is not claiming to teach children all there is to know about gender. it's just starting the conversation. No matter how you feel about trans people, kids have a right to know that they exist. Trans people are already out in society, they are people's friends, people's relatives, kids will at some point need to understand what being trans is. Making it a taboo topic in schools only increases stigma around the subject.

No, KatTapilla the thread is concerned with the evolution of the programme, how it was devised, what the content is, what the agenda of the people/organisation behind the content is, how it is being taught, whether the some of the content is appropriate at all and whether it is being taught in an age appropriate manner.

You keep on about ONE book and are ignoring all the rest of the information being discussed about this programme on this thread. You keep saying that medical transition is not discussed as part of the programme - how do you know? Parents need to know exactly how this programme is being delivered to their children.

This program was evidently designed to make all children feel safe

It doesn't do a very good job then, since it teaches girls that it is wrong to assert boundaries or consider their needs for privacy and dignity as important. Tell me: which toilet should girls invite Tiny into again? Or be ashamed if they don't?

How odd, considering that a critical and urgent problem facing even primary schools at the moment is boy-on-girl sexual harassment and abuse.

which is why it is sometimes useful to make a medical distinction between sex and gender identity

You do understand that most of the people you're talking to here are gender identity apostates, right? We don't believe there's any such thing as a "gender identity", innate or otherwise. We believe that there are personalities (largely innate) and sex stereotypes (social impositions).

One is a belief system of rationalism grounded in material reality.

The other is a belief system of metaphysics - a godless religion, as it were.

The rationalists among us do not want a metaphysical belief system taught in schools as though it was fact.

This thread seems to be centred mainly on the concern surrounding medical transition. As the curriculum is based on children's books I would expect that medical transition is not discussed in the gender part of the program, if anyone can do research and prove otherwise then please do. Children in year 6 study the book 'My Princess Boy' which is about a boy who wears dresses and doesn't conform to society's expectations of him. He is not labelled as a trans woman and the boy who the book is based on does not identify as trans.
It seems that this book is therefore saying exactly what the people on this thread want children to know - that children should be free to be themselves.
This program was evidently designed to make all children feel safe and accepted, and to start conversions between children so from a young age they are confident and tolerant people. If parents feel uncomfortable with specific books being studied they should discuss with the school, but saying that gender issues should not be discussed at all is unfair to the children who may need support in this area.

The NHS website describes the process of seeking help if you believe your child might be trans. It is a thorough process and involves recieving talking therapy and having extensive psychological assessments before being cleared for any physical treatment

New here, are you?

Children need to know they're free to be themselves not a sexist stereotype and body mod with life long health implications.

LGB is about accepting who people choose to love and loving and accepting yourself.

T is about sexist stereotyping and physically irreversibly changing your self to fit that stereotype.

It is perfectly possible to identify with a different gender to the one you were assigned at birth,

No-one is assigned a gender at birth and this nonsense should never be taught in any school at any age.

Suicidal ideation is actually significantly higher amongst high functioning autists - wonder why there are no comparable efforts to make school a safer and more inclusive space for those children?

www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(17)30162-1/fulltext

KatTapilla

Something else for you to read:

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

Thanks for sharing that article. I have read it and it seems to be a very thorough analysis, making the case that medical FtoM transition did not alleviate gender dysphoria and therefore suicide attempts, meaning other alternatives to medical transition should be found. Although it argues the suicide attempt statistic may be more like 20 percent, it doesn't dismiss the fact that it still a worrying figure.

I think that we might be conflating the issues of medical transition, and the issue of being a trans person. It is perfectly possible to identify with a different gender to the one you were assigned at birth, without taking hormones or undergoing surgery. Telling children that trans people exist is therefore not the same as promoting complex surgeries or hormonal treatments to them.
The NHS website describes the process of seeking help if you believe your child might be trans. It is a thorough process and involves recieving talking therapy and having extensive psychological assessments before being cleared for any physical treatment. I am not sure that reading a book in school about a boy who doesn't want to be a boy anymore is going to pressure children to go through this drawn out, complex process. It is more about making the school feel like a safe an inclusive space for those children who need the support already.

KatTapilla

This may be of interest with regard to that very often USA 40% suicide figure quoted. The original survey was analysed back in 2015;

4thwavenow.com/2015/08/03/the-41-trans-suicide-rate-a-tale-of-flawed-data-and-lazy-journalists/

Quietlife333 It's a well known and a sorry state of affairs that UK teachers are quitting, resources are stretched and funding is so non-existent that schools ask for loo rolls to be sent. I feel incredibly sorry for any teacher who is going to have to construct an age-appropriate lesson plan based on the No Outsiders programme that doesn't mislead or misinform young, impressionable and naturally curious minds. I personally would struggle answering the inevitable questions, I would be truthful and gender critical so could never do it without bias.

This is an absolute quagmire and it's not Damien Hinds or even the Headteachers who are going I have to wade through all this but the teachers who have to tack it on to whatever it is they are also doing. (I'm old and I don't know what happens now but it was my history teacher who taught the equivalent of PSHE classes and he told us about his wife's miscarriage and it was excruciating).

My son starts school next year and I'm absolutely terrified.