I thought I couldn't be shocked anymore (No Outsiders programme)

I agree with justhadathought.

I think schools are going way beyond their remit. Things like this just illustrate how underqualified they are to even try and get into all this at any age. Teach them school subjects, maths English biology re god forbid maybe a bit of art or even music!

As an ex-teacher, it is not so much schools going beyond their remit, but society and governments imposing on schools the responsibility to 'teach', cure, resolve, fix all of society's issues and ills and issues. Some new edict every week about what schools 'should' be teaching.

Meanwhile, more and more children are coming into the classroom barely able to string a sentence together, and having no concept of rules or boundaries.

I’ll tell you what I’m hostile to:
Schools that lie to children.
Schools that tell girls their feelings don’t matter as much as boys’.

Children are taught basic human reproduction at the end of primary school as a part of safeguarding policy; eg a child can name and describe the parts of the body that an abuser abused, recognise that those parts are private.

• I have actually started this process with my own boys from a very early and age appropriate way. We use correct names for body parts. I have age appropriate books to explain basic human biology including reproduction and private areas. The oldest knows how wild animals have their young; a male and a female.

@KatTapilla

I'm really unclear exactly what a "trans kid" is.

All children deserve to be treated with respect and express themselves as they wish without putting themselves at risk of harm; adults are the gatekeepers and safeguarders.

Children need to be taught about their body and private areas, basic biology of the sexes as puberty often occurs at age 8,9,10, and body positivity to support healthy attitudes towards 'self'.

Children are taught basic human reproduction at the end of primary school as a part of safeguarding policy; eg a child can name and describe the parts of the body that an abuser abused, recognise that those parts are private.

Sex/ gender stereotypes are damaging. Girls are behind in areas of maths due to toys marketed at girls being non maths based; the ones for boys often are. Boys are being turned off art as it's touted as a girl activity. Boys are labelled 'camp' and 'gay' if they enjoy stereotypically girls activities - both misogynistic (girls are weak) and homophobic. This must be rigorously challenged in primary schools.

Dysphoria is a complex mental health perception difficulty with differing reasons for cause (high % of children have autism and have been abused). All the above helps a child potentially to not develop dysphoria of any sort. This is not within the realm of direct teaching at primary level.

No Outsiders tries to teach the equality act through books, to primary and possibly middle school children, which is a great idea in theory, however:

1. It uses "gender identity," not the actual protected characteristic of the gender reassignment of an adult.

2. it clearly, from the analysis of this article , doesn't give equal balance to all the protected characteristics.

3. it takes high level thinking and debate to understand the finer nuances of how the different characteristics might in some way clash due to faith or sex - not appropriate for primary level children.

4. Opinions around "trans" are being directly taught as facts. it is some people's opinion that you are born in the wrong body. This is scientifically not possible. You have your own body. Brains are not pink and blue. This is sexist stereotyping.

So what is a trans kid?

Using the phrase "transgender ideology" makes it seem like being trans is some sort of political choice. Trans kids exist already, whether or not they see themselves represented in school lessons. Teaching kids that there is no wrong way to be a man or a woman is surely a good message for kids, trans or not - boys can wear pink, girls can play football etc.

No, it makes clear that the current fad for steering gender non-conforming children into hormones, breast binding and a potential life time of surgery and medical treatment is the result of a set of ideas; one of which is that you can be born in the wrong body, and that what is most real is how you feel, rather than biological reality. Any formalised set of ideas constitutes an ideology.

"Trans kids exist", in the sense that many children have already been taken down this pathway. To implant, and nurture, such ideas into young minds is dangerous and unethical.

Never underestimate the power trusted adults have over small children. They believe everything they are told. Teachers have a huge responsibility not to use that power to push their own agendas. It's completely wrong.

It really pisses me off that women and girls' boundaries etc are so disregarded and ignored.
Not just that, but women and girls are being actively taught and coached to put men first.

Absolutely. Where are the gender critical lesbians coming in to talk at school. Does Moffatt not invite any of those speakers in?

At my niece's school the head boy, who is gay, very confident/outgoing and has huge influence over students and staff - fundraising for those poor underfunded lambs, Stonewall, ensuring the trans flag is draped by the girls' toilet. It's a very affluent school and the head boy is a privileged, wealthy young man who has been treated like a prince throughout the entirity of his education.

Meanwhile, my friend's daughter's friend, who 'was' a lesbian at 13 has since decided (after the school had a couple of guest speakers in, which the head boy organised) that they are now trans and in fact a straight male.

So yes, this stuff matters. Five lessons do count. This is at secondary so God knows what the impact is on primary.

It's totally the script Floral

Ah, clear assumptions that the women here know nothing about any of these issues, dodgy suicide stats as leverage to get them to comply/shut up and finally 'I'm just here to stand up against the hostility I sense on this forum'.

I'm not sure where the repeated concern for gay kids, kids who struggle with their bodies, kids who have damaged their bodies all being harmed by the message being pushed by the misleading lies in this programme that have been discussed on this thread is evidence of hostility to trans people, but I suppose if you think it's possible for someone to be born in the wrong body, reality is incidental and irrelevant.

Is this the thread? The one where we finally have it explained to us what being trans is, without the usual circular definitions and stereotypes?

I can't wait. Got snacks in.

I thought exactly the same when I read that. Labelling a child an outsider when the whole point is that there should be no outsiders. And as you say, the gasp might have simply been surprise, or anything - not necessarily homophobia.

So it's more 'No outsiders, unless you do or say something I disagree with, in which case you're the outsider'. How tolerant.

Yes, it was quite starkly demonstrated by that quote. I thought the same too.

@FlyingOink I agree with you!

We navigate this the best we can, but my worry is that we told dd what was happening to this friend was OK, albeit 2/3yrs ago now. It's only recently that my stance has changed, because of the current climate obviously and seeing how unhappy our friend is. While I wouldn't wish that on anyone, I don't think it was the answer they believed it to be.

My older daughter has lost a friend, because the friend feels the boys they hang around with validate them more, when none of their female friends ever did anything other than make them feel validated. They are attracted to boys, and claim to be a gay male. Their next step is consultation for possible surgery, which I feel will just make things even more worrying for them and complex.

They also have anxiety, and asd and I worry they are heading for a hard time.

differentnameforthis that's so sad - both the anxiety your daughter feels and the disaster happening around the child you know.
I don't understand how it is illegal to sell skin bleaching creams to people who want to damage themselves to be lighter skinned but it is legal and celebrated to sell or provide binders to confused and unhappy young girls to destroy their breast tissue, back muscles and ribs. Do we have a libertarian free for all and start giving babies cocaine drops for toothache again or we ban items that cause the public harm?
Has there ever been a study on whether binders actually provide any mental health benefits, anyway? Or is it just more fake science? Is anyone elated at being unable to breathe?
I would have happily had my breasts removed when they suddenly appeared. I would happily have dosed myself up to "become a boy". Then again I did many stupid things when I was a teenager, and considered many more.
I hope some of these girls sue the arse off of any organisation that provided them with dangerously restrictive garments that affected their long term health. You can't even medicalise binding, or come up with pseudo-scientific justification for it. It's barbaric, damaging and doesn't even make these girls look like boys anyway, so they're wasting their time!

@KatTapilla - I have been trying to stand up for trans people in this thread because it seems to me that there is a lot of hostility towards them on this forum. There is no hostility against trans people, there is hostility against some of their & their supporter's beliefs that as soon as a child decides they do not want to conform to what society outlines as their "gender norms" they must be the opposite SEX to which they were born as. That as soon they (as a boy) want to wear what society deem to be "girls' clothes and accessories, we must make them grow their hair, develop breasts and start to try to "pass" as a girl.

None of that needs to happen. They should be free to be male and dress/wear what they like. True gender dysphoria does exist. I just don't believe it exists on this scale.

At the end of the day, five lessons a year can't sway your child's beliefs as much as whatever you tell them every day. I have been waiting for an opening to say what I am about to, so thank you!

My daughter is 10, hates her developing body and doesn't look at herself in mirrors. We have had to cover up a full length mirror in her room as she can't even stand to glance at herself. This started recently and is down to anxiety and puberty. Nothing more. Yet if she was told at school or elsewhere, that she could stop feeling like this, stop her body changing and become a "boy" it would be enough for her to question everything she thinks she knows about herself.

ONE lesson would be enough to throw my daughter into doubt. Regardless of how hard I work to tell her she is female.

We have a child who we know that is transitioning to "male". I can categorically tell you that they are not even 1% happier, and the decent into drugs, and alcohol at 15 is shocking to see. They have turned their back on all their female friends (who were bloody good friends and not once were anything less than 100% supportive). Dropped like hot rocks for male "friends" who took them down this route of drugs etc.

They have caused themselves untold damage (at 15) by constantly binding their breasts. The bruising is on a level I have never seen before.

All this started at when she got her first period. When my eldest got her first period, she cried on and off for a couple of days, saying she didn't want this. I told her that as female, this is what her body does, and it is a amazing! With that support, she got over it and now deals with it like every other female I know.

Because of our "friend" my stance on trans has changed.

I now tell my girls that you cannot change sex.
You don't have to conform to what society says your gender is, or what they say your gendered rolls should be
Wear what you want, have your hair how you want, but you are a female.

And this

Spot on.

LGB is about accepting who people choose to love and loving and accepting yourself.

T is about sexist stereotyping and physically irreversibly changing your self to fit that stereotype.

This needs to be on a t shirt. Spot on.

And fuck this shit as well!

A PP wrote *What the TGT article makes clear is that programmes like this are propaganda, pure and simple.

We have to keep asking who benefits.*

Those who are grooming and abusing children will benefit greatly from any programme that confuses children about their bodies and their boundaries and their abilities to assert their boundaries.

Abusers will also benefit greatly from children who are taught that kindness and obedience are the most important things.

Abusers will benefit if young children are taught that sexual pleasure and desire are things that belong anywhere in their young lives. That conference should have never taken place and it should not be in the history of a course being taught to children today.

Educators must always look for the unintended consequences of the messages being given to, and received by, children.

Clear and factual information given to young children about their bodies, sex and boundaries will give them some power to protect themselves and express concerns.

Confusing messages which tell children that they must override their boundaries in order to be kind and inclusive, or which makes children unsure about their bodies, sex and sexual pleasure leaves children completely vulnerable to abusers. An abuser need only groom a child enough so that she feels partly responsible for what is occurring in order to ensure her feelings of shame and therefore her silence. A child who lacks understanding due to poor or dangerous education will often blame herself for her failure to recognise or prevent what has been happening to her. It is disgusting that it is abused children that will carry the shame of the failure to teach them to understand or assert their boundaries.

Safeguarding children is the most important thing.

Fuck this shit indeed.

I have noticed that FwR is becoming extra especially sweary of late.
Perhaps we have collectively banished a few more inner Beryls?

The only thing a 5 year old needs to know about gender is that no toy, no colour, no dressing up costume is just for boys or just for girls.

It really pisses me off that women and girls' boundaries etc are so disregarded and ignored.
Not just that, but women and girls are being actively taught and coached to put men first.

Fuck this shit.

oldcrone it really does demonstrate a lot of the hypocrisy doesn't it. The kindness, understanding and tolerance is only really important in one direction. Girls' boundaries are not important.

Yes - a programme entitled "No Outsiders" immediately gets defensive and snitty and outsidey when a small child reacts in a manner that is considered "Wrong" by this gender/anti-female orthodoxy cult.

We do need to guard against these, mainly, men.

To be honest guys, I am no expert on this program. Nor am I a trans person or an expert on being trans. Neither are you, I would suspect.

The two key books by Andrew Moffat re 'No Outsiders' have some open access on Amazon:
www.amazon.co.uk/Outsiders-Our-School-Speechmark-Practical/dp/1909301728/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21
www.amazon.co.uk/Reclaiming-Radical-Schools-Andrew-Moffat/dp/1138564311/?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

'No Outsiders' program website by Andrew Moffat:
www.equalitiesprimary.com/about-us.html

There is also a section with links and shared resources.
www.equalitiesprimary.com/resources.html

Despite being based around the Equality Act 2010 where sex is a protected characteristic, Moffat and many of the shared resources conflate sex with gender /gender identity.

From links, Moffat comments, 'Stonewall . Excellent resource, well worth keeping up to date with.'

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3516346-Compulsory-trans-lessons-in-primary-schools-what-will-this-involve

ChickenonaMug I thought exactly the same when I read that. Labelling a child an outsider when the whole point is that there should be no outsiders. And as you say, the gasp might have simply been surprise, or anything - not necessarily homophobia.

So it's more 'No outsiders, unless you do or say something I disagree with, in which case you're the outsider'. How tolerant.