Feminism and Climate Change

SuperLoudPoppingAction we have two in our family with autism and one with quite severe sensory food issues, and I have multiple chronic illness including a new one just discovered this week, so I too have chronic fatigue amongst other things! So I understand the challenges. I’m afraid I’m still going to disagree, with this being such a serious issue, I think it’s entirely appropriate to be black and white about it particularly when the poorest in the world will suffer the most because of decisions and lifestyles chosen by others in richer countries. I’m not suggesting there are not challenges in unique situations, but most of us with access to supermarkets have the ability to make different choices without too much difficulty.

Now that's interesting Lang - my in-laws are very gardeny people, and have kept an allotment for decades, and they also have a large veg plot in their garden. Large chest freezer to accommodate their produce, they share the surplus and so on. FIL has not long had a knee OP which put him out of action and they had to wind down a lot of the allotment because MIL, who is the kind of woman who irons her husband's socks and pants works from dawn to dusk anyway, was already at full stretch and couldn't do his work as well to compensate.

I appreciate the passion here, but I'm a bit meh that it's become another thread to have a disagreement about environmental measures on a personal level without reference to the ways in which women will bear the brunt of the consequences whichever way things move forward and how to mitigate that.

Agree.

(I speak, though, as a woman whose aged father does uncomfortably more than his fair share on her allotment. Oops.)

I was vegetarian from age 9 to age 18 through choice related to ethics.
From age 18 I had to rely on whatever food was around due to poverty. I couldn't afford to buy and cook my own.

I had 3 children and once I was single again I wanted us to become vegetarian but was so knackered and broke and it was really v hard to make the shift. I found it hard to think about changing my routines and what we tended to eat.
I have chronic fatigue and we all have sensory issues so food we all eat together is tricky.

I had heard about Carol Adams' work discussed in feminist circles and that got me thinking.
My youngest also went through that phase all my children went through where he questioned eating meat.

That combined to encourage me to make the shift.
But it wasn't as easy as it would have been if I had more money.
If I made a meal that wasn't nice we would still have had to eat it.
I couldn't afford things like jackfruit that are really tasty.
I wouldn't have had the confidence to make my own Seiten. That took about 7 years.
And this even though I had experience of eating vegetarian food and a strong preference for it.

I think it's important to stress the feminist side of being vegan/eco friendly but we shouldn't use alienating language to do so.

We shouldn't dismiss the difficulties or be black and white about it.

I appreciate the passion here, but I'm a bit meh that it's become another thread to have a disagreement about environmental measures on a personal level without reference to the ways in which women will bear the brunt of the consequences whichever way things move forward and how to mitigate that.

In fact we're now at the stage where some posters seem to be saying "Yeah, it makes women's lives harder, but so what, that's not as important." which really doesn't seem in the spirit of the OP.

Goosefoot you have insisted a few times that it’s limiting or difficult, and as someone who actually lives this way, I’m saying it’s not. If others want to excuse themselves from trying because they perceive it’s difficult or not enjoyable, that’s their choice but I will continue to argue the opposite is true because I know it is, and because we actually need others to try. I’m trying to change people’s thinking so that we stand a chance, rather than be defeatist or make excuses for others that I know are not real in practice. I’ve helped plenty of others make similar changes too so I know that while slightly inconvenient at first, this type of habit changing and conscious shopping is achievable and does not feel limiting. ‘Others find it difficult’ is an excuse and honestly, irrelevant. What is far more difficult, is climate change and the devastating impact that will have and is already having.

it. It's not feasible to feed all 65 million in the UK people on locally-produced food. As a country we haven't been self-sufficient in food for a couple of hundred years and we're not likely to be any time in the near future.

It’s true certain crops would only work well in certain countries so complete self sufficiency is not always a realistic goal- there is one country that does it I believe. But to reduce imports to only those reality required is an achievable and worthy goal. Like, why is anyone in Britain buying New Zealand apples? You have great apples here!

It is more efficient aka cheaper. It is not what is best for the environment.

Eating only locally-produced is perfectly reasonable when only a small proportion of society is doing it. It's not feasible to feed all 65 million in the UK people on locally-produced food. As a country we haven't been self-sufficient in food for a couple of hundred years and we're not likely to be any time in the near future.

can’t be less efficient than shipping food halfway round the world!

It's much more efficient to grow food using industrial methods in locations best suited to a particular crop and then ship them around the world than it is to grow a mixture of crops by hand in little plots scattered all over the place. That's why food is so much cheaper now than it ever has been.

rebecca can’t be less efficient than shipping food halfway round the world!

"In your opinion based on no actual experience. I disagree. Most vegans I know eat sustainably and as locally as possible, it’s not something we discuss as difficult. That includes by Mum on a very tight budget in another country. You think people would find it limiting, in your opinion. It is my opinion that in reality it’s not like that and people would find it satisfying if they tried, like we all have."

You have no idea what my experience is.
People who are already vegan are not exactly representative, are they? People who find it easy will of course keep eating that way.

I really don't know what you are trying to say here. People have a hard time making these kinds of dietary changes, whether you think they ought to or not. All you have to do is read and talk to people to know that this is the case.

Snap, Kilbranan.
My garden won't change the world, nor will yours bit it's a tiny positive thing.

Not a particularly feminist thing, but there's a group called We Are The Ark. It's about rewilding, building a network of wildlife havens even if just a wild corner of your garden.

Doing something is always better than nothing.

I have an allotment but allotments are an inefficient way of producing food. It's like going back to the strip system we had pre-agricultural revolution or everyone having a croft. I spent today sewing mesh together for a frame to keep the wildlife off.

Really interesting thread. I think one big change in UK in a generation is how few people grow their own fruit and veg now. Previously everyone would have had a patch and grown something. Then swapped stuff with neighbours if you had too much etc. We moved out of town to have a big garden and grow loads now. Last year we were eating from the garden from April/May right through till Christmas. I could extend this more but haven’t quite organised myself with winter crops yet. Ok it’s not enough to live on but majority of fresh veg and a good amount of fresh fruit we eat in summer and autumn is home grown. The advantages include saving money, being more active (by gardening) eating more healthily as well as the reduced food miles, zero waste etc. It’s also a great way to get kids to understand where food comes from.
Gardens generally are great for insects and I’ve gone for lots of bee friendly plants and flowers, as well as planting native hedging which will produce berries and hips to feed the birds.
City living reduces opportunities to grow your own but there are still some things you can grow inside if there is sunlight and space to grow it.
It’s something a lot of people in UK could do if it was encouraged and on a population level it would have some impact

Plus it’s really good fun and great for your mental health too

If you put them all together, they are going to find it difficult.

In your opinion based on no actual experience. I disagree. Most vegans I know eat sustainably and as locally as possible, it’s not something we discuss as difficult. That includes by Mum on a very tight budget in another country. You think people would find it limiting, in your opinion. It is my opinion that in reality it’s not like that and people would find it satisfying if they tried, like we all have.

"Which is running through forests". An autocorrect snuck in

I think it's a shame running marathons has become synonymous with fundraising for the runners I know who just enjoy running in the way I enjoy cycling and some people play tennis or golf. My ex used to run and did London and New York marathons. We did a sponsor thing for the first but hated asking for donations and ended up giving most of the money ourselves and didn't bother with the second one. Agree that these far flung sporting events are very environmentally unfriendly. Going to NY to run 26 miles is daft, but then we did combine it with a holiday. At least it isn't destroying the environment as much as all the Everest climbers.
I used to love Orienteering which is runners no through forests which sounds environmentally friendly but few events are accessible by public transport.

Marathons. And I'll add all the other high visibility, highly organised, virtue signalling look at me charity events.

BBC News - London Marathon: How do you reduce the environmental impact?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-48064102

But that you are doing it and like it really isn't relevant to whether or not other people do it, are willing to do it, would find it simple, or whether they would like it. Lots of people find eating local more difficult, lots of people find eating vegan more difficult, lots of people find eating on a budget or with limited facilities difficult. If you put them all together, they are going to find it difficult.

. It would certainly be possible to eat that way and a lot of people used to most of the time if they were poor, though the calorie density wouldn't be great. But I think most people these days would find it really limiting.

I’ve said a few times in the thread, it’s not limiting, it is enjoyable and entirely possible- and very healthy and nutrient dense. How many vegans do you know well enough to know what they eat? Are you basing it on what you see on Instagram? That’s not a realistic portrayal of what vegans eat, which can be sustainable and local- we are growing our own vertical dry beans this year even. By all means chose not to go plant based, but please don’t keep saying it’s not possible to do it well, cheaply and sustainably if you’re not doing it yourself. We’re doing it, we eat well and are thoroughly enjoying our life.

"It’s not at all. Family of vegans, and we practice aspects of frugal living as well as eco friendly living also, since doing so we have saved literally thousands. I haven’t found living this way more expensive, quite the opposite. My teenager isn’t as eco conscious as us but within our household we are."

Do you manage to eat a vegan, local diet in the winter? You likely have a somewhat better climate than I do for that, my options are similar to one of the Nordic countries. It would certainly be possible to eat that way and a lot of people used to most of the time if they were poor, though the calorie density wouldn't be great. But I think most people these days would find it really limiting.

Even in the UK though, I don't see many vegans doing this - vegan recipes 90% of the time seem chock full of imported foods.

I find that you really don't need to include much animal based food to make a huge difference to a northern diet of that type, and in that kind of climate it's generally quite efficient to have animals incorporated in the agricultural cycle in the levels needed.

@MissEyre The large part of my pension is placed in a somewhat ethically aware pensions company in my native country: No tobacco, no weapons and no oil. We just found out that they invest in other companies, that invest in tobacco, so now the members have asked them to stop that too. My British pensions company, however, does say that they are considering the ethics of their investments, but it appears to me, they are not as tough on the issue. I didn't have many options, however, as we are not that many people using that pension fund in my company and if we chose another company we would end up paying three times more in fees than we put aside in pensions. It is the pay gap playing a role here.

I do think I have a larger foot print now than I did previously, though, as I take the car to work instead of using my bike or public transportation. But I had trouble finding full time employment and there is no public transport to my current place of work. This is, of course, some of the motivation behind me trying to be extra environmentally friendly in other aspects of my life. My DH did pull a face when I used some cotton yarn from an old blouse to knit kitchen cloths, though. He is used to them now.

They have milk men in our town. I don't really know whether it will be a good idea to switch to buying milk from them or not. On one hand they use glass bottles that are actually recycled, whereas I am not so sure that our plastic bottles get recycled now that China has refused to get plastic refuse from the rest of the world. (Not really sure that I believe that they actually got recycled in China. I think they might just have dumped them in the ocean). On the other hand, I pick up milk when I am in the shop anyway, whereas the milk man doesn't usually appear on my road, so that would be extra car driving.

Bogstandardbelle, some of the old tenant farms that produce local veg were run sustainably. But not many still exist. They are being put out of business by large industrially run farms.

JessicaWakefieldSV
I'm saying the exact opposite of living life the way it is. I'm saying it's governments that have the levers but aren't using them. I have been living frugally my whole life and take full responsibility for my lifestyle and have done for decades.