Another day, another friend insisting that THIS video will change minds and hearts

You can make changes to your appearance, but you can't control how others perceive you.

And that really is at the heart of this. Contrapoints knows that many women are never going to buy into the idea that Contrapoints is a woman, so Contrapoints finds it expedient to smear, mock, dismiss and misrepresent these women.

I thought it was interesting, I thought she was an excellent communicator and she made me reflect on a few things differently; the hyper feminisation aspect some transwomen employ and the issue wit a woman having a different lived experience from a transwoman.

However, these are not really my main concerns about the trans movement anyway; wear what you like and I'm happy to use whatever pronouns you like. I'm more concerned with children undertaking irreversible medical procedure and transwomen invading womens's sport and other prizes. I don't have a problem with a transwoman in Primark changing rooms.

WeRiseUp, that message made me laugh. I note you still haven't explained exactly what it is that makes her a drag queen, except that you think she looks like one.

My message is that your arguments are weak, not you personally. I don't engage in ad hominem.

Agreed, OldCrone. I cannot imagine basing my entire identity around how others perceive me.

This person is a trans woman. A person born male and now taking hormones and making other changes to be perceived outwardly as female.

You can make changes to your appearance, but you can't control how others perceive you. If you base your sense of self on how others perceive you, you will always be disappointed.

JustBecauseYouAreUniqueDoesNot

Pretty uncomfortable with the idea that femininity is a parody or caricature of womanhood. I am not a feminine woman but there is nothing wrong with femininity per se

I have seen posts on FWR saying that feminine women are in drag. A poster once posted about how much she loathed drag queens but feminine women were even worse.

It's still a handy one word description of a thing. Id rather talk about concepts than get bogged down in semantics.

No, it really isn't. This is not about "semantics". These male people are not another type of woman, which is what you are saying. What justification do you think you have for excluding them from any women's spaces at all if they are?

It really doesn't. It is familiarity and experience

So you have drag queen radar? I'm sorry, what you are saying is just nonsensical. This person is a trans woman. A person born male and now taking hormones and making other changes to be perceived outwardly as female. She says so in the video. That is not the same as a drag queen and saying that you "just know" she is a drag queen and then making some spurious analogies is not an argument.

Feel free to reply to the points made in the video, but repeatedly dismissing her as drag and thus not worthy of response is just weak (and offensive).

It seems to boil down to your view of their femininity and sincerity.

It really doesn't. It is familiarity and experience.

For example, if you listen to Amy Winehouse you can hear that the backing and production is a slightly pastiche Motown sound from the 60s.

If you see an episode of Killing Eve you can recognise production values taken from Nordic Noir.

If you are an archaeologist and you see a small fragment if pottery you can date it because you know what a complete pot from that period looks like.

None of that means, however, that "cis women" shouldn't have our own spaces, our own sex protections and our own political movements promoting our own interests.

There is no such thing as a "cis woman". Males are not women. You're enabling this bullshit.

I can't understand your logic as to why you say that this person is a drag queen

The whole presentation of the video (that admittedly I couldn't tolerate for long) was pure drag.

Pretty uncomfortable with the idea that femininity is a parody or caricature of womanhood. I am not a feminine woman but there is nothing wrong with femininity per se.

The reason for this person dressing in a very feminine way is explained in the video, and the reasoning made sense to me.

I can't understand your logic as to why you say that this person is a drag queen when she doesn't say that. It seems to boil down to your view of their femininity and sincerity.

And they are dressed like a parody of women

And for this video presenter to exaggerate femininity

I don't think there is anything particularly exaggerated or a parody about her appearance. Her makeup wasn't OTT. The dress is a tea dress. I have dozens similar. As for the hat/ fascinator, I wear proper hats and occasionally fascinators , not just for weddings.

So glamorous transwomen are drag queens but the dowdy ones aren't?

Firstly, I don't believe in such a thing as a 'transwoman'. Humans can't 'cross' or change sex.

Secondly, drag queens are gay men and not all males who identify as trans are gay. AGPs are not drag queens.

Thirdly, drag queens are exaggerated and high camp, often glamorous caricatures of women, though they may deliberately choose a 'dowdy' look it is be unusual and will still be a 'caricature of a dowdy woman' seen through the gay male lens - so exaggerated and theatrical in some way.

Fourthly, if a male doesn't behave as an exaggerated caricature of a female and is 'crossdressing' or taking hormones or having surgeries in order to be viewed as the opposite sex because they have a profound psychological problem, (not sexuality based) that compels them, and they don't want to draw attention to themselves, then they are not drag queens.

I agreed with pretty much all of that and I'm fairly terfy.
It was a great argument for treating trans women with respect and compassion and for trying to find shared experiences and common ground.
None of that means, however, that "cis women" shouldn't have our own spaces, our own sex protections and our own political movements promoting our own interests.
When the trans lobby stop attacking us outside meetings and trying to get us fired from our jobs-I'll be ready to form alliances.

There are also males with body dismorphia who want to pass as women who can be gay/bi/straight/asexual who wish to be read as the opposite sex - not a stand out glamorous member of the opposite sex - maybe even a bit dowdy or unremarkable. They are not drag queens.

So glamorous transwomen are drag queens but the dowdy ones aren't?

I cant get away from the fact that all the inconsistencies point in the direction of these people very much being men inside.

They have male bodies.

On the inside they are individuals who, like all of us, have been subjected to a great deal of gendered socialisation.

So is your view that all transwomen are drag queens?

Drag queens are a theatrical exaggeration by gay men who present in female stereotypes and glamour.

An AGP is not a drag queen, because they are not part of gay culture.

There are also males with body dismorphia who want to pass as women who can be gay/bi/straight/asexual who wish to be read as the opposite sex - not a stand out glamorous member of the opposite sex - maybe even a bit dowdy or unremarkable. They are not drag queens.

On the whole misgendering thing. I plonked myself next to a TW on the bus the other day as it was quite crowded and there was a bit of a conspicuously empty seat and I hate the thought of anyone feeling uncomfortable. When she got up to go I gave her a friendly smile as, even though I don’t believe men can actually be women, I still realise it must be tough on many levels being a TW. And then I thought was that really the right thing to do? had I made it obvious that I was aware she was trans and spoiled her day?
The Medium article got me wondering – is the underlying need for other people to actually mistake them for cis-women or just to behave like they mistake them for cis-women?
Because the answer to this question is very gendered imo. As a rule, for an actual women someone’s intentions, thoughts and feelings would be crucial, whereas for a man not so much, the act of getting someone to behave how you wanted them to behave would be enough. And it seems with all the threats around misgendering it is the act of forcing other people to behave as if TWAW is what matters to the movement rather than, say the emphasis being on genuine acceptance.
However much I try to look in to the nuances of the arguments I cant get away from the fact that all the inconsistencies point in the direction of these people very much being men inside.

It's about the external validation though. She wants people to call her she and validate her perceived inner gender identity so arising from that she puts on exaggerated femininity.

Anybody so needy of external validation would do better to undertake some therapy, imo. An audience will never be able to meet the need; attempting to engaging one for this purpose seems to me to be avoiding addressing the underlying drivers of the neediness.

Just ask any number of performers down the ages.

High camp exaggerated behaviour does not 'pass' as a woman, it is a gay male caricature.

Rose of Dawn speaks about wanting to be read as female, but as far as I see in the videos this is just through 'feminine'/sexualised presentation. RoD still behaves unaffected and as a serious person though, so has more chance of 'passing'.