Another day, another friend insisting that THIS video will change minds and hearts

To the best of my knowledge there has only been one proper debate so far between a TRA and a feminist, which was - Meghan Murphy and Julie Rei Goldstein in Calgary last month.

Highlights include the male participant forcefully telling women that we don't have right to feel safe, and a crowd of blue haired children trying to insist that cameras are turned off for the Q&A because they don't feel safe.

Also nobody died. People disagreed and lived to tell the tale. Nobody ceased to exist.

#NoDebate is dead. Anybody having fake arguments with strawladies instead of engaging honestly with people who have different interests is a bullshit merchant.

The only difference I can between my life as a woman and what it would be as a man is that I wear a bra and pee sitting down. Otherwise no difference whatsoever.

Do you look like man, or would you pass as one, I wonder? If not, then I firmly suspect that a fair amount of what has happened to you in your life is on account of you being female, and that this has shaped your life, your attitudes, your parameters, and your opportunities.

Maybe you don't have children, but I'm sure you've experienced puberty and menstruation too?

The only difference I can between my life as a woman and what it would be as a man is that I wear a bra and pee sitting down. Otherwise no difference whatsoever.

On the drag queen point, Contrapoints has just announced that they will have a booth at Ru Paul’s drag convention. So I’m not sure that Contrapoints would object to being called a drag queen. I personally thought a lot of the phrases that Contra used in the video gave them away as a drag queen- they call women “fish” and say they are “A grade tuna”, which is straight out of drag race.

More & more I'm coming to see how transgressive/ gay male culture is what all of this about. Sheila Jeffreys spoke brilliantly and informedly of this in 'Unpacking Queer Politics'. The trans umbrella now covers every sort of sexual orientation or 'transgressive' practice. That's why so many gay men are firmly, and unquestioningly, behind it.
Throwing women under the bus.

I asked another poster earlier how a man could 'live as a woman' and what this entails, other than wearing stereotypical female clothing, but they didn't reply (they never do).

Looking after a vomiting toddler actually, and feeling like my contributions to this thread are a bit of a shout into the void, but I will answer this one question (then no more; been a tough day!).

I said outwardly present as a woman ie they adopt stereotypical female attributes such as long hair, wear women's clothing, take hormones and in some cases have surgery. I say very carefully that they were born male and now present outwardly as a woman because I don't believe that you can change sex (in common with most posters). I have no problem referring to such a person as they wished to be referred, and to me this person passes as female I.e. I would not have given their sex much thought had they not been openly trans. That's what I meant when I said up thread that you don't know much of my views because most of them you would probably agree with anyway.

I didn't read it as drag, I read it as panto, with the T**F in the role of wicked witch.

It's very nicely produced bullshit which seems to have sucked a few people in.

If it wasn't for the production values it would have been immediately obvious to everybody that this person has represented their feminist opponent as a witch and permitted her to deliver a select few feminist argument as a single line and then allowed her no comeback to their long, and at times waffly, 'refutations'.

If this person wants to argue against 'gender critical' points, why not have a straightforward debate with an actual feminist?

Not entirely sure how we are supposed to know how to distinguish between those who are theatrically costumed as women temporarily for comic / entertainment effect and those who are theatrically costumed as women 4 life

This is never explained. I asked another poster earlier how a man could 'live as a woman' and what this entails, other than wearing stereotypical female clothing, but they didn't reply (they never do). So I still don't know how you tell a man who is 'living as a woman' from a man who is just cross dressing for a laugh or as a fetish, or to gain access to women's spaces because he's a sexual predator.

And how do you live as a woman if you're a man?

I guess a TRA would say that it’s all based on self ID and whatever the person says they identify as from one day to the next?

There does seem to be significant overlap culturally between drag and trans communities. I try to be careful of conflating the two but sometimes it’s hard to tell and the trans community themselves seem to embrace much of the drag subculture and references, as Contrapoints does.

Not entirely sure how we are supposed to know how to distinguish between those who are theatrically costumed as women temporarily for comic / entertainment effect and those who are theatrically costumed as women 4 life and are therefore women just like standard cunty type women and have never been anything other than female even though they were ‘assigned male at birth’ and retain male sexual characteristics....

On the drag queen point, Contrapoints has just announced that they will have a booth at Ru Paul’s drag convention. So I’m not sure that Contrapoints would object to being called a drag queen. I personally thought a lot of the phrases that Contra used in the video gave them away as a drag queen- they call women “fish” and say they are “A grade tuna”, which is straight out of drag race.

Yes. I give people their names and pronouns and I don’t dead name because I think it’s the polite thing to do. And it also means i’m not giving them a handful of ammunition they can use to distract from the bigger issues.

This sort of 'politeness' and respect is usually earned with familiarity and some degree of respect and trust. What would have earned it is maybe not calling anyone who is critical as a TERF - in the first instance. Relationships are two way things.; there has to be reciprocity. And don't call women 'cis' when you have been told they reject it.

This 'dead naming' business is just another example of narcissism.
I've changed my name on a couple of occasions in my life, but don't throw a wobbler when someone from my past uses the old name. I also don't demand they call be by any other name than the one they think of me as. I'm big and secure enough to handle this, and I must also respect their side of the relationship.

Me too Erish!

God. I can't believe so many people take this little twerp seriously. I am getting old.

And oh the comments on that Holly Lawford Smith piece! I'm with Maisa Carvalho.

Exactly lamaha you think "just cut to the f-ing chase!".

Thanks OldCrone.

From that break down it seems this person is saying absolutely nothing new that I haven't heard and isnt actually putting a different slant on anything either.

It seems to be saying:

Be kind to males, budge up for males, don't be concerned about males, include males, males feel sad if women don't do all this, women who don't do all this are transphobic bigots who are motivated by disgust with 'trans' people and wish they didn't 'exist'.

Did I miss anything?

Is Natalie's femininity making people imagine that they're nice?

Life is short. I don't particularly like watching videos as a format anyway - too bloody time-consuming and time based - you can't scan read etc.

Me too. I really hate watching videos as they just consume too much time and I'm not interested in who is saying something, only n what is being said. Having it spoken slows everything down. Written as an article, I can scan, skip bits, go back and forth to what is interesting.
It always seems a little "this is all about me", ie self-promotion. If the speaker is as obnoxious as this one, it's an immediate no. Even if the content is something I'm interested in or agree with, if the speaker is too slow, takes too long to get to the point, waffles around, draws attention to themself, I'm gone in a flash. Life's really too short. Write it, and I'll read it.

And she does actually make an attempt to answer a question or two.

Really? I watched the "answers" to the first three, and there was no attempt to really answer them. Just waffle which skirted round the issues but avoided giving any real answers.

Did you see this piece that someone posted earlier, WeRiseUp?
medium.com/@aytchellis/response-to-contrapoints-263a2796bb9b

I suppose when you've got used to this:

www.feministcurrent.com/2018/05/01/trans-activism-become-centered-justifying-violence-women-time-allies-speak/

Natalie seems positively friendly.

But she is not actively offensive or agressive, which makes a nice change

Apart from calling women "terf" and "evil bigot" you mean? Sounds like the same old same old to me, in a fancy hat this time.

Ah. Then I think you must have some rhino hide when you say it's "not actively offensive or agressive" - and I must have become delicate through lack of exposure - I couldn't stand how aggressive and offensive it was.

Yes. I give people their names and pronouns and I don’t dead name because I think it’s the polite thing to do. And it also means i’m not giving them a handful of ammunition they can use to distract from the bigger issues.

When you are talking about "she" are you referring to the narrator or the straw feminist?

I think it’s pretty grim. But it is much more measured and thoughtful than many others. The style is horrible. Abd the “straw feminist “
Is very annoying. And she stops, as usual, before the difficult questions. But she is not actively offensive or agressive, which makes a nice change. And she does actually make an attempt to answer a question or two.

Hang on, this person is calling feminists "evil bigots" and "terfs" but we're supposed to take them seriously are we? How does that work exactly? Is it because they're not calling for us to die in a fire that this sort of thing passes for civility now? The bar is so very very low.

"Excuse my beauty, terf". Hmmmm.