Another day, another friend insisting that THIS video will change minds and hearts

Contra points is someone who I actually really like, they just have a massive blind spot when it comes to this issue because they obviously have so much invested in it.

I watched their ‘are traps gay’ video yesterday and I totally agreed with all of her points until she started saying that trans women are women and that there’s such thing as a feminine penis.
I found it REALLY interesting that in that video she spoke of her own experience that she used to date women but when she transitioned she found all ‘cis lesbians’ to be terfs and realised she actually wanted to have sex with men anyway.
It’s obviously not up to be to define her sexuality, but as an outsider that sure as hell looks like repressed homosexuality due to internalised homophobia to me.

To me it’s obvious that it’s not that straight men fancy trans women because they’re women, but that the world is incredibly homophobic so lots of bisexual men repress their feelings.
We should be fighting for a world where it doesn’t matter one jot who you love or fancy, that being bisexual is completely accepted, not that men who dress a certain way become women. Why do women have to redefine ourselves so men don’t perceive to have their masculinity insulted?

Contra points seems intelligent and I think she might struggle in the future when she unpacks some of her misogyny and homophobia. I think she’s deliberately not debating with terfs because she knows they would challenge the holes she can already feel in her arguments.

World of Socks.

I'm not convinced by lots of those tweets. The most realistic ones are those saying 'I'm from a conservative family, but read a lot of stuff online'

I didn't see any that said they used to be against puberty blockers and breast binding on children, but think its ok now.

Or MTFs describing how they got into trans ideology

And here is the tweet thread. A large amount of these "I was totes a gender critical feminist/TERF" statements are from male people denouncing women they know.

twitter.com/ContraPoints/status/1105219197850865671?s=20

It's not so much fun if a bunch of women are saying 'I was totally GC before

Like one of the commenters on the Holly Lawford Smith article, I read Contrapoints' Twitter thread when CP put a call out on Twitter for "gender critical feminists" who'd seen the light and were now proud trans allies. As the commenter pointed out, they didn't appear to have any feminist analysis of gender, they were just "garden variety transphobes" who had decided they liked trans people after all because they liked CP's videos.

And of course, CP didn't care whether they were actually gender critical feminists or not, because this is an exercise in propaganda.

Once you really peak, as a woman, you don't tend to go the other way, because modern trans ideology is about male supremacy and has no internal logic, and its followers can't adequately defend it in open and free conversation. Once that becomes obvious there really isn't anywhere else to go.

I have never been abused (though I've encountered a lot of harassment by men) and I STILL don't want to get naked in the same room as strangers. I don't even want to get naked in the company of really, really lovely men that I know in a platonic way.
Does that make me a prude? I really don't care. I don't see why I should have to.
And those women who HAVE been abused definitely should not be forced to.
Women who don't mind can go in the mixed showers/changing rooms, which should be third spaces or the men's.
Women need privacy and their reasons should not be questioned.
Have we learned nothing at all from *metoo?
'

Quite. Nothing gives you an accelerated understanding of how abusers operate quite like watching one at close quarters.

I found it offensive that they basically say we must have all been abused to have concerns about tw without an sympathy whatsoever to the fact that YES a lot of us have been abused, a genuine reminder of the risk but no we are capable of intelligent reasoning on the side

The evil panto witch does look like fun. Lots of time, effort and expensive equipment and software went into making that strawlady look so evil and panto and witchy. I'm sure contrapoint had lots of fun creating the character.

It's not so much fun if it's you and your interests, your arguments for your rights, that are being portrayed in this way. It's not so much fun if a bunch of women are saying 'I was totally GC before () but this video makes lots of sense' (while never being able to articulate exactly what 'sense' has been made).

Are people no longer able to recognise propaganda if it has high producton values? If so we are truly fucked.

The evil panto witch looked like fun - very Queen of the Night.

Nothing wrong with weird and wonderful at all.

Whenever I went out last summer with the FPFW leaflets I always made sure I was wearing horns and had a weird green glow behind me.

The 'evil panto witch' look worked a treat when engaging with ordinary women on the street.

Are you going to tell us you often dress like that, and not just for weddings?

The witchy outfit, Lass?

You also don't get to dress up in weird and wonderful costumes

What was "weird and wonderful" about what she was wearing? Not that there is anything wrong with weird and wonderful, but it wasn't.

But that just shows that a man can't live as a woman, because living as a woman simply means living as a human being who happens to be female.

That's exactly what I was trying to say. There's not some innate magical essence that exists in me apart from my biology. I'm just a human adult female, with a unique personality. All women are that. Everything about me that is female, has to do with my biology: menstruation, pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, menopause. Any "female" personality I have acquired including wariness around strange men and protectiveness of my bodily privacy comes from those experiences.

Those experiences are so exclusively female, and so very different from a male's, that he can't just say "I'm a woman" and think he's hit the spot. A man cannot have them. They have nothing to do with clothes or presentation. They have to do with actual female experience; living in a real female body.

There is no essentially female lifestyle, once biology takes a back seat and is reduced to bra and pee.

Looking after a vomiting toddler actually...

There you go. That is one experience that is definitely 'living as a woman'. Taking care of a pukey kid is something that is largely done by boring old cunty types of women. Not the FABULOUS, BRAVE and STUNNING variety.

And yes, I am aware that men also take care of vomiting toddlers but less typically as the default parent or single parent. Women still do the vast majority of caregiving work - unpaid or paid - in the world.

And I don't see high profile trans women who are most strident in their 'TWAW NO DEBATE!!!!' beliefs lining up to take on that aspect of 'living as a woman'.

Ooh thanks for the link Pencils, I'd missed that debate.

I'll be interested to compare with how JRG speaks to Stephen Crowder, here

Debate: Steven Crowder v transactivist Julie Rei Goldstein
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3341871-debate-steven-crowder-v-transactivist-julie-rei-goldstein

Sheila Jeffreys spoke brilliantly and informedly of this in 'Unpacking Queer Politics'. The trans umbrella now covers every sort of sexual orientation or 'transgressive' practice.

YY. Thoroughly recommend that book to get a handle on queer theory.

You also don't get to dress up in weird and wonderful costumes, if you have to include someone else like being "gender neutral" in a white chemise and tonnes of blusher.

If this person wants to argue against 'gender critical' points, why not have a straightforward debate with an actual feminist?

Because putting your own words in the straw witch’s mouth is much less bother, most likely.

I firmly suspect that a fair amount of what has happened to you in your life is on account of you being female, and that this has shaped your life, your attitudes, your parameters, and your opportunities.

But that just shows that a man can't live as a woman, because living as a woman simply means living as a human being who happens to be female.

I'm supposed to know the difference, and be fine with one in women's spaces but not the other.

A lot of people would argue that you should be fine with both in women's spaces. The inference being that because gay men fancy men and not women, you should be tickety boo with sharing your space with them. Your female biology that you only share with other women and no men is irrelevant because women's anything is irrelevant. The fact that gay men still have male socialisation, a male gaze and are often misogynist, judgemental and nasty about women's biology is irrelevant. Its all about men and who men fancy that you should be concerned with. Men define everything and should be centred in every issue.

Thanks for coming back to answer my question, JustBecause.

I said outwardly present as a woman ie they adopt stereotypical female attributes such as long hair, wear women's clothing, take hormones and in some cases have surgery.

So you're saying how someone 'lives as a woman' is all about presentation?

The problem for me, is that this is a non answer. I grew up in the 70s, a time when men often had longer hair than women, so I don't see long hair as a particularly female trait. In fact, even now, the person who has the longest hair amongst the people I know is a man. And he is most definitely a man - a lifelong biker who probably hasn't had his hair cut since the 70s.

Women's clothing. What exactly is this? I don't think I wear women's clothing (apart from my underwear). The t-shirts, jeans, shirts and sweaters that I wear most of the time are indistinguishable from my husband's, and some of them are technically men's clothing, having been bought from the men's department. Does that make me a cross-dresser or 'trans'? So another non-answer.

take hormones and in some cases have surgery
That's not 'living as a woman', that's being a transwoman, or a transgender person or transsexual.

It seems I'm no closer to getting an answer to how a man 'lives as a woman'.

I agree with your post InionEile

There seems to be a massive overlap between drag and trans. Which wouldn't matter to me except I'm supposed to know the difference, and be fine with one in women's spaces but not the other.