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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Dad who gave Birth 'Seahorse' Documentary

116 replies

OtepotiLilliane42 · 20/04/2019 13:12

McConnell, 32, started taking testosterone at 25 and had “top surgery” to remove breast tissue a year later. He considered a hysterectomy, but never went through with it – partly because he had not ruled out the possibility of having children. In the film, we see how discombobulated McConnell becomes when he stops taking testosterone as he tries to conceive, using a sperm donor, and his body, in effect, goes into reverse. He starts having periods again (“I don’t like the idea that I’ve got tampons in my bag,” he winces); his facial hair gets wispier, his hips broaden, his tummy softens and he starts to speak less from his chest and more from his throat. “Every time I think about it, I think, ‘What the fuck am I doing?’” he says. At one point, a tearful McConnell sobs into the camera in the middle of the night: “I feel like a fucking alien.

Throughout, he is encouraged by his mother, Esme, who tells him: “I loved being pregnant. Everybody should experience it – especially men.” McConnell tells me she used to say this to him when he was a child, long before she had any idea that her son was trans. On screen, his mother supports him with a mixture of tender loving care and the odd no-nonsense kick up the arse. Occasionally, when he’s feeling sorry for himself, she loses patience: “Why are you making such a fuss? It’s what you wanted.” Then she relents. “But, actually, it’s not as simple as that. It’s such a brave and amazing thing to do. I’m in awe of him, basically

This such a dishonest piece of reporting - Freddy may be a transman, but he is not the father of his baby, and shouldn't be reported as such, any more than the other transmen who have given birth over the past few years. I could say more, but it honestly it gets really tedious reading stories like this. (And 'brave and amazing - why? There seem to be so many psychological issues here, yet we are expected to view it all as the new norm.) The Guardian really should stop writing such drivel.

www.theguardian.com/society/2019/apr/20/the-dad-who-gave-birth-pregnant-trans-freddy-mcconnell

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wmfinnegan · 11/06/2019 00:45

I've just watched Seahorse at Sheffield Doc/Fest and felt the need to respond to this thread. It is a beautifully made film from one of the UK's best documentary producers (Jeanie Finlay) and I'd suggest reserving judgement until you've had a chance to watch it, (I believe it will be on BBC 4 at some point later this year as part of the Storyville series).

It seems like this discussion was only started to attack the subject of the film/article, which feels like a pretty clear violation of the Mumsnet guidelines especially the statement on trans rights. This has been couched in a critique of the Guardian and how they are using their platform to promote a co-production, but that doesn't seem worthy of so much angst, especially as we are talking about a story in the weekend magazine's society section, not the front page.

I've generally found mumsnet to be a useful resource, but I just don't get the ranting and judgement. Freddy is the baby's dad. He also was pregnant. And, after everything he went through to have a baby and the general warmth and humanity that comes across in the film (as well as in person as he and Jeanie were at the screening for Q&A), I think he'll be a dedicated, loving, flawed parent, like everybody else on this forum.

Some of the ideas and issues raised by his story are challenging. But it seems like people find them threatening as well, or else I'm not sure why they are worth commenting on. Anyway - watch the film and decide for yourself. Or don't watch it - but don't rubbish it without having watched it.

Jeanie also had another brilliant film at Sheffield Doc/Fest that is a character-driven, full access look at the making of the last season of Game of Thrones (The Last Watch), if that is your cup of tea.

emerencealwayshopeful · 30/04/2019 00:15

A friend posted a link to an article about this film and I knew there would be a thread here.

As I've said elsewhere - what sort of person has a level of misogyny that means they are unable to cope with being 'read as' female (or to identify as female at all) while gestating and birthing - the most intensely female experiences possible? What sort of society encourages women to hate themselves so much? Why the fuck aren't we talking about this properly?

Observations - One article identified Freddy as trans and gay, which would mean heterosexual, and able to fall pregnant the old fashioned way? But elsewhere former partner (we are told) also has ovaries - but is also NOT female.

And 'According to figures compiled by Medicare for Australia, one of the few national surveys, 75 people who identified as male gave birth naturally or via C-section there in 2016, and 40 in 2017.'

That quote is terrifying. Who are all these male identified people who have babies??? What sort of world is this anyway?

Furthermore - as stated above, why all these stories about transmen who are pregnant and give birth? This is what biologically female people do, and will always do. This isn't news. And it shouldn't be presented as such.

In 2019 one of the most newsworthy things a biological female can do is be pregnant?

Time40 · 23/04/2019 21:25

... that's the first time in well over a year of being on MN that I've had a message deleted. It hurts, and it's shocking.

Time40 · 23/04/2019 21:21

Oh my God - I had my message deleted by MNHQ. For God's sake - what on earth is going on here? It really wasn't anything too awful - it was just a statement of fact, and I think most of you here would have agreed with it. You're all totally right - there are things we are not allowed to say here.

It stinks, frankly. Why????

I feel like saying it again.

newtlover · 22/04/2019 21:05

I might just do that

ChattyLion · 22/04/2019 10:23

I saw that Freddy’s/the Guardian’s film and this promo interview with Simon Hattenstone in the Guardian has been picked up on by the Daily Mail, but it’s a rehash article pretty much:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6943105/Gay-transgender-man-tells-story-giving-birth-boy-despite-fears-trans-phobia.html

That said the Mail do allow BTL anonymous comments and discussion (anonymity can be important in allowing women to speak safely/feel safe to speak.)

The Guardian does not allow comments on Hattenstone’s article but it does have this at the end of the piece (note: not possible to reply anonymously to the Guardian itself Hmm)

If you would like a comment on this piece to be considered for inclusion on Weekend magazine’s letters page in print, please email [email protected], including your name and address (not for publication).

OtepotiLilliane42 · 22/04/2019 05:20

Thank you ChattyLion for your thoughtful, nuanced analysis of Freddy's story, and the way in which the Guardian chose to report it.
I feel sorry at the loss of journalistic integrity shown by the current media when it comes to reporting on transgender issues. Simon Hattenstone should blush with shame for writing that article.

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GrumpyGran8 · 21/04/2019 18:08

Bravo ChattyLion - the Guardian as Fleabag's awful stepmother is spot on! Flowers
If anyone from the Guardian is reading this, could I ask you to make your next film about somebody who is, say , raising a disabled child or caring for an elderly relative, coping with divorce - you know the kind of problems that thousands of your readers are struggling with. And please forget about earning woke points by turning a staffer's life into a freak show!

ChattyLion · 21/04/2019 14:50

Agree with you Otepoti. I wish Freddie and Freddie’s little son all the very best and I am really glad they both have the baby’s grandparents around/family support.

I’m still really shocked though at the Guardian’s coverage of this film and of Freddie as the documentary subject. The Guardian’s complete abandonment of any sense of, you know, actual journalism in this article. As if only ‘some feminists’ and the ‘alt-right’ believe in physical reality? Or only they believe in the shitness of gender roles?

Where is the journalistic exploration of the political lines being spoken by Freddie? Where is the gentle probing asking Freddie to unpack these glib statements that he is making, just a little bit more?

And I would want to ask if Freddie feels that adherence to this ideology is serving Freddie’s own best interests and is making him happy? or indeed the interests of Freddie as a parent to Freddie’s little son- is this political outlook likely to make either of them happy? Given that this ideology was apparently so in conflict for Freddie when Freddie had the perfectly mundane human urge to reproduce?

Eg Freddie talking about getting pregnant and being pregnant: It took me so long to feel OK about wanting kids, because there’s a stigma attached to it,” he says. “It took me a long time to separate identity from biology. I’m just using my hardware to do a thing. It’s pragmatic.”

Why did Freddie need to feel he’s just using ‘his hardware’ (eggs, uterus, female body) to ‘just do a thing’? What is so wrong with the ‘thing’ that it can’t even be named? I notice that Freddie doesn’t say ‘pregnant’, he says ‘carry’ all the time. Why so? In what way is he not ‘pregnant’ like anyone else? What is he, if he is just ‘carrying’? What does that mean for transmen or for women?

And couldn't the journalist have gently asked about identity- about the individualistic aspects of identity and what relationship an individualised identity claim, has to being a member of a group or the group identity? Like with the describing Freddie as being a ‘gay, transgender man’? (in the trailer blurb: www.theguardian.com/film/video/2019/apr/02/seahorse-exclusive-trailer-for-new-documentary-about-the-dad-who-gave-birth-video)

How do gay men feel about that description? Or women? Or lesbians?

What about the obvious parallel to other birthing women when Freddie talks about giving birth? What in any of this makes Freddie ‘a man’? (except his beard which he seems to feel is a big part of it)?

Would journalists treat anyone else who flatly denies biological reality with such enormous, patronising, irresponsible, kid gloves?

And why didn’t the Guardian actually explore what kind of person is Freddie? Like what else does Freddie have going on in Freddie’s life apart from Freddie’s views on gender?

Oh hang on- Money. I presume the Guardian must have a financial interest in this film because they helped to make it.

So Hattenstone’s article is really just a promo for the Guardian’s own new film.

But is this really newspaper journalism? To completely abandon any sense of objectivity once there is money to be made? To demonise most people (whoops, sorry: ‘some feminists and the alt-right’Hmm) to give a bit of grit to an otherwise very self-absorbed, but clearly rather vulnerable person’s story?

Honestly the Guardian’s tone is so patronising and tokenistic. Don’t trans people like Freddie ever feel really insulted when they are (apparently) ‘lauded’ in such an othering, self-congratulatory way? (the Guardian patting itself on the back for being so benevolently ‘inclusive’?) And patting Freddie on the head all the while.. and while taking full advantage of the access Freddie apparently gave over 3 years...
Where are the journalistic ethics here?

The Guardian coverage is exactly like the Stepmother/Godmother character in the BBC 3 show Fleabag, introducing people at her wedding. This outrageously narcissistic person doesn’t have any real relationships. She says: ‘Oh here’s my lesbian friend, here’s my bisexual Syrian refugee friend, here’s my deaf friend..’ or whatever. It’s painful to watch. They are not truly friends.

The stepmother/godmother doesn’t know them as people or individuals or friends, they are just a collection of fashionable, exotic (to her) labels in human form demonstrating how interesting, worldly and tolerant she is. None of these people are individualised beyond those small facets of who they are.

Collecting woke points by treating living people as only representatives of something, is not treating people as people- human people are never one-dimensional. And so many people suffer for the labels that are put on them it’s actually really decadent and horrible to be colluding in all that.

Anyway- i’m sure we’re all looking forward to the next films that the Guardian will make, following other Guardian staffers’ personal lives and struggles.

I wonder if the Guardian have any women on their payroll who were let down by a partner at the trying to conceive stage or in early pregnancy, and then they decided to go it alone with a lot of support from their family who live very close nearby to them..? How supportive has the Guardian been to them? Have they found it easy or hard combining work at the Guardian with motherhood with no partner support? Hmm

OtepotiLilliane42 · 21/04/2019 10:09

A refreshingly sensible article from 2016. The Federalist is a fairly conservative US journal, so its political views don't align with mine on every issue, but regardless, common sense is common sense.

thefederalist.com/2016/09/07/dear-media-not-news-transgender-men-get-pregnant/

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FannyCann · 21/04/2019 04:50

The wise words of Philip Larkin spring to mind. I feel very sorry for the children born to these parents.

"Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself."

OtepotiLilliane42 · 21/04/2019 04:14

The trailer for 'Seahorse'. There's a shot of Freddy reading a comment on twitter which says 'except there's no such thing as a pregnant man'.
A purely factual statement, which should offend no one who isn't living in denial of biological reality.

www.theguardian.com/film/video/2019/apr/02/seahorse-exclusive-trailer-for-new-documentary-about-the-dad-who-gave-birth-video

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Time40 · 21/04/2019 01:37

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

OtepotiLilliane42 · 21/04/2019 01:15

ChattyLion I couldn't agree more with your post, especially when you point out this:

But really it is NOT ‘monstering’ or ‘caricaturing’ anybody just to know scientific facts. Or to insist that those facts are relevant in our policy and law-making. Or to challenge social norms that are harmful - like gender stereotypes.

What made me feel so angry about the Guardian article was the implication that anyone who refuses to accept the alternate reality that Freddy seems to be living in is horribly prejudiced, which is nonsense. I mean for heaven's sake Freddy knows they are a biological female otherwise Freddy couldn't get pregnant, and give birth! Freddy is not magically somehow male and female at the same time, and it astonishes me how many people are prepared to pander to such delusions. Can Freddy not see the contradictions in his wanting to rid himself of his 'femaleness' by surgically and chemically altering his body, yet having to rely on that same female body in order to achieve what he wanted, which was a child?

I do feel that the Guardian is being hugely irresponsible in the way in which it reports transgender stories. Ignoring the basic facts of human reproduction in order to promote a pernicious and dangerous ideology is actually quite astonishing for a paper of its stature.
The Global Development pages have excellent reports on the issues facing women from around the world, issues which arise from the facts of women's biology. The reporters who write those articles don't seem muddled as to the differences between male and female biology - so why the apparent confusion when the prefix 'trans' rears its head.
I wish the McConnell family well, but I see no reason why the Guardian should abandon its duty to report the truth when it writes on transgender issues.

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Illyria47 · 21/04/2019 00:12

Ah, just clicked on to the Guardian, saw the headline, screamed internally, read the article, screamed some more. What on earth were his parents thinking to collude in this delusion. Thought must put this up on Mumsnet and reckoned it would already be up. They have a daughter who has mutilated herself in order to pretend she is a man.
I had better say he from now on but really Guardian. A man cannot give birth pure and simple. How many times does one have to say it. You can't change your biological sex. I don't give a flying fig if someone wishes to change their identity but don't ask the rest of us to believe in your delusion that you have actually changed your sex because you can't. Screams again.

ChattyLion · 20/04/2019 23:52

oh dear:

McConnell believes much of the antipathy has been fuelled by unlikely bedfellows – the “alt-right” and some feminists, who argue that biology is destiny and therefore trans women are not really women and trans men are not really men. “Many of these people haven’t met a trans person, and the monstering and caricaturing is not based on reality,” McConnell says. “Not everyone gets a chance to meet a trans person – but that is often what changes everything for someone who can’t get their head around it. So I thought this film could be in lieu of meeting somebody – you could spend an hour and a half with me.”

Sorry but people of all political persuasions know about human biology because all of us have to live in a body. We know what sex we are. And usually we know where babies come from and how humans are made.

I have total sympathy for anyone having distress about their body or the bullshit of gender norms. That must be horrible to live with and needs expert support.

But really it is NOT ‘monstering’ or ‘caricaturing’ anybody just to know scientific facts. Or to insist that those facts are relevant in our policy and law-making. Or to challenge social norms that are harmful - like gender stereotypes.

And nobody actually really thinks that a woman actually changes into a man. People are just being kind to people or being woke and denying their own real thoughts in favour of taking up an ideological position.

But you know, the Guardian, carry on demonising ‘some feminists’ who tell the truth and shine a light and care about safeguarding women and children.

Victoriapestis01 · 20/04/2019 22:14

Oh god, reading this, I’d be concerned about Freddy’s ability to cope with a new baby, then toddler and small child. Not because of being trans but because of the astonishing levels of self obsession revealed.

Motherhood does lead to a great extent to the loss of the self, for us all, given the need to put a completely helpless and dependent person first. For a person who is hugely invested in maintaining a particular image of themselves to the outside world, and themself, this is likely to be very problematic.

I’d also be concerned that weeping that you feel like an alien, in pregnancy, is a sign of mental health problems ( and I speak as someone who suffered from body dysmorphia for years). And this sort of problem can be dealt with only if recognised for what it is.

I don’t think Freddy’s mother has been at all helpful in encouraging this.

newtlover · 20/04/2019 22:08

yes, that was the worst part of the whole article I thought
the rest just made me feel very sad- here is a woman who has mutilated her own body and yet still had a baby, albeit she can't feed it
very sad

UvvenGluv · 20/04/2019 22:05

*SPOILER ALERT**
.
.
.
.
.

Seahorses are not actually horses
🌊🐴

NotBadConsidering · 20/04/2019 22:01

Some opponents of the proposed changes have argued this would increase the chances of men pretending to transition in order to access “women-only” spaces, such as prisons or refuges. Conversely, trans equality campaigners point to the fact that, while emotive, there is little evidence for this risk; service providers have argued that longstanding safeguarding measures are in place to keep all vulnerable women safe.

This part is written, to give the benefit of the doubt, as trying to be balanced, to project both sides of the argument. It fails because of the simple fact that it fails to acknowledge things that have actually happened.

How long are people going to try and get away with using the words “myth” and “theoretical” risks to women when people like Karen White, Katie Dolatowksi, JY etc exist? It’s not a case of “if”, it’s a case of how many women assaulted you deem tolerable.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 20/04/2019 19:24

So they had a mastectomy - but not hysterectomy or penis construction. Well duh, stop taking the male hormones and nature will just do what it does to deserted building ruins - take over.

Not if they had had a hysterectomy and man made penis then I may be slightly amazed.

Dog bites man
Man bites dog
Woman has baby.

VickyEadie · 20/04/2019 19:21

Guardian is now Ripley's 'Believe it or not' magazine.

megletthesecond · 20/04/2019 18:53

Person with womb has a baby.
It's almost painful to read.

Gone2far · 20/04/2019 18:05

This is why I stopped reading the bloody Guardian. Vote with your feet people.

Daffopill · 20/04/2019 17:48

Biological female gives birth. Along with several 100 million each year. Why is it even a story?