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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman loses job raising concerns about risk assessments and self id

59 replies

RunningWild12 · 17/04/2019 21:01

Really appalling and scary account of a woman losing her job in Scotland due to raising concerns around risk assessment and self id.

“voiced concerns to a colleague about, firstly, the adequacy of assessment of risk that had been carried out in relation to the proposal that 'self-identification' should become the only criterion for biological males to be legally considered females and, secondly, the wisdom of the guidance provided to schools by Education Scotland“

It’s here in full www.scottishreview.net/MMorrison476a.html

OP posts:
Floisme · 19/04/2019 10:59

And there is no way in hell that I would trust my trade union to support anyone over this. They would probably hand you over to the lynch mob and sell tickets for the hanging.

OldCrone · 19/04/2019 10:58

Because they have funding withdrawn if they don't adhere to the Scot Gov policy on including transwomen.

Is there an official policy on this?

OldCrone · 19/04/2019 10:54

I did feel that as the thread went on that people had lost sight of the wood for the trees

I was starting to feel the same way, which is why I asked for my posts to be deleted. I read through the thread again this morning and reminded myself what this thread is about. It's about a woman who was hounded out of her job for daring to speak the truth. We shouldn't be criticising her for not doing more.

Floisme · 19/04/2019 10:45

Yup. There are zillions of charities out there now, many of them former public sector /government departments (sounds like Maggie came from that background). They don't get their funding by standing in the market square shaking a tin and they're all scrapping for the same poxy little pots of money.

And I doubt whether suing them would bring any satisfaction. If you won it would most likely close them down and the chances are you wouldn't see a penny.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 19/04/2019 10:41

Publishing that article was bloody heroic for a start. Poor woman.

OllyBJolly · 19/04/2019 10:39

Why are all these so called charities in thrall?
Because it's the only way they can survive. They are not nice places to work and that poor woman has all my sympathy

Because they have funding withdrawn if they don't adhere to the Scot Gov policy on including transwomen.

MoleSmokes · 19/04/2019 10:34

@Floisme posts crossed in the ether! I agree 100% - and Charities are notorious for poor industrial relations practices too (research by unions, TUC, etc. not a personal opinion).

RuffleCrow · 19/04/2019 10:33

I hope she sues their pants off.

MoleSmokes · 19/04/2019 10:29

@OldCrone thank you. That is exactly what it is. I did feel that as the thread went on that people had lost sight of the wood for the trees Sad

I do not know the woman but, from what she says, she is no small fry either:

I previously had worked in public services with decades of experience in children's social care and education. Questions of equalities and rights were matters of which I had long and well-respected experience in Scotland, the UK and Europe.

We do not know whether the Charity was influenced in its approach by any pressure, or any fear of impact on funding if it did not deal harshly with her "transgression".

What we DO know is TRAs have not been slow in the past to lobby charities aggressively and threaten funding e.g. pressuring venues booked for meetings about the GRA Consultation. Presumably the Charity was aware of how things might pan out if it did not react decisively?

We already know that someone connected with the Charity in some way was sufficiently affronted to report her words as a "contravening Equalities Legislation", so there was some "TRA-type" pressure within or close to the organisation.

We also know how aggressively TRAs can threaten, smear and harass individuals, women in particular, who voice legitimate concerns about both Self-ID and "watchful waiting" vs "affirmation".

I would not like to have been in her shoes, unsupported and isolated in that workplace.

To speak out publicly now, rather than hide away and lick her wounds, strikes me as courageous. She does not need to put her head over the parapet again and the impact on her personally and in terms of future employability is hardly likely to be positive.

I hope that if she needs support that she can be sure of finding it here Smile and thank you too @Clitherow Smile

Floisme · 19/04/2019 10:25

Why are all these so called charities in thrall?
Because it's the only way they can survive. They are not nice places to work and that poor woman has all my sympathy.

Floisme · 19/04/2019 10:04

Thank you MoleSmokes. Charities are not happy, cuddly workplaces. They're in a perpetual dogfight to secure the next bit of funding and have to jump through ever smaller hoops to get it. They will be ruthless with staff who rock the boat.

clitherow · 19/04/2019 08:46

Great post MoleSmokes

OldCrone · 19/04/2019 07:56

I think she deserves a bloody medal for what she has done so far and for going public.

On reflection, and after reading your post, MoleSmokes, I agree with this. It's too easy to criticise people for not doing what we think we would do. In reality, given the current atmosphere, she has been very courageous.

I was treating this as a 'normal' disciplinary situation, when all parties, including the employer, would behave in a reasonable manner. But that's not what this is. This is a witch hunt.

MoleSmokes · 19/04/2019 03:12

I find the nitpicking, quibbling and "what I would have done/what she could have done/what most people would have done" comments on this woman's decision to resign extremely lacking in empathy. Perhaps due to a lack of insight into how traumatic and extraordinarily long-winded Disciplinary Procedures can be?

The first stage of a Disciplinary Procedure is not the one to consider, it is the last stage, an Employment Tribunal (same in Scotland?) because it might need to go to that. If so, reckon on a year to 18 months of further stress in the workplace, affecting health, relationships plus interest from the press.

Not forgetting this is not any issue, it is a Trans issue. We know how TRAs target organisations and individuals.

This is all assuming that the Charity has decent HR Procedures. Many do not and are incompetent and/or aggressive when it comes to industrial relations.

The woman does not mention a trade union so perhaps the Charity does not recognise a Trade Union or she is not a member?

Unfortunately, even if there is a Union and she is a member they might not have the appetite to take this case on because many unions, (and the Scottish TUC now?) have fallen under the "No debate" Trans spell. (See "Regulatory Capture" thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3541908-Regulatory-capture )

The first stage can be stretched out by HR so that a process that should take a matter of days or weeks takes months.

Again, this is not any issue, it is a Trans Issue. However weak the case against her in theory, it is not hard to imagine the direct and indirect pressure that might be placed on the Charity. I dread to think of the personal impact.

Hard to see the case not falling at that hurdle. Then one or more stages of Appeal. The last one probably to Board/Non-exec members. Finally, having exhausted all internal procedures, perhaps (only perhaps) there might be grounds to take to an Employment Tribunal.

This is all speculative but you have to look at the worst-case scenario when making a decision whether or not to fight something like this. Also the support (and protection?) available, what else is going on in your life and whether you want to stay with that employer, re-employment prospects, etc.

A reminder of what she actually said on this subject in the article (bold text my emphasis):

"Anyone who enters into the debate about transgender recognition can expect to become a target of activists and social media trolls. So I do not enter into this minefield lightly. Three recent events have prompted me to write this. The first of these was losing my livelihood. The second was the first minister's response to a journalist, when she was addressing the UN on human rights last month, in which she dismissed medical and scientific evidence. The third was the letter by a 'collective' of 70 women, describing the views of those who did not agree with them as 'archaic', without presenting one shred of evidence that substantiates this assertion.

I'll start with the first event. Following an overheard conversation in my workplace, I was accused of 'contravening equalities legislation'. This was because I voiced concerns to a colleague about, firstly, the adequacy of assessment of risk that had been carried out in relation to the proposal that 'self-identification' should become the only criterion for biological males to be legally considered females and, secondly, the wisdom of the guidance provided to schools by Education Scotland. Its website suggests that 'affirmation' rather than 'watchful waiting' should be the response to children whose preferences do not equate with the roles traditionally associated with their biological sex, when research and longitudinal data indicates otherwise.

The workplace in question was a charitable organisation where I had worked for 10 years. I previously had worked in public services with decades of experience in children's social care and education. Questions of equalities and rights were matters of which I had long and well-respected experience in Scotland, the UK and Europe. My personal commitment to human rights and to eradicating inequality has also been unwavering throughout my life. It was, therefore, a real body blow to be so unjustly accused and my health and wellbeing were seriously affected.

In essence, I was given an ultimatum. Either I left my post voluntarily, or action would be taken against me that, I was left in no doubt, would be seeking to dismiss me. The legal advice I had suggested that the case against me was flimsy at best – indeed I was advised that, had there been an adequate case to dismiss me, there would have been no need to offer any alternative. It was also pointed out to me that the disciplinary and appeal process would be protracted and stressful, and that 'victory' would mean I had to return to a workplace where I felt threatened and isolated and where, I am sure, there would have been continued attempts to get rid of me. This would probably have resulted in irretrievable compromise to my health and welfare. Clearly, therefore, I was in a 'lose/lose' situation.

Let me be clear – I have no wish to stick my head above the parapet and have done so very reluctantly. I have, however, felt it necessary to do so as I know of many other women who fear the consequences of questioning policy and legislative positions that fly in the face of known evidence. I also am aware of others who have been put through kangaroo courts or subjected to abusive name-calling for legitimate questioning of what seems to have become orthodoxy without any significant supporting information. "

(Continued:
www.scottishreview.net/MMorrison476a.html )

I think she deserves a bloody medal for what she has done so far and for going public.

If you are reading this, Maggie Flowers

OldCrone · 18/04/2019 23:00

Blimey, would rape victims get the same response from you? Confused

DarkAtEndOfTunnel · 18/04/2019 21:59

Law is not the same thing as justice, and most of us know it. There is only so far you can argue. I'm glad you agree that working in a toxic environment, where fellow co-workers treat you as if you are constantly on sufferance and every little thing that goes wrong around you is your fault, is no fun. Once you are in that position it is a question of time before you are pushed out, and then you may struggle to get a new job in a poor employment market without good references. Writing about it in public is a strong statement in itself. Blimey, would rape victims get the same response from you?

OldCrone · 18/04/2019 21:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DarkAtEndOfTunnel · 18/04/2019 21:35

Seconded Lumene. You don't know what her circumstances were. Those saying she should have shown more 'strength and resilience' need to consider what those terms actually mean. They often mean 'having high financial reserves' and 'high family/ social support'. Or maybe it was just a bad time.

Lumene · 18/04/2019 19:06

I don’t think the woman who spoke up is the one we should be criticising here.

Erythronium · 18/04/2019 18:08

This sort of thing will happen though. Not every woman has the strength to fight her employers on principle, knowing that they want to get rid of her. It would be hard to see a future in an organisation which had already told you that they didn't want you and wanted you to leave. The law is one thing, but going in to work in a hostile environment day after day would take its toll.

Trousering · 18/04/2019 16:02

At the risk of being a pedant here there was no "fight" required. Just the word no.

No to resigning voluntarily.

The legal advice was clear.

The whole story about how horrible it would be is her reaction.

The word no would just have likely puffed the whole thing over as led to attempts to dismiss. Don't run away scared from injustice.

Bowlofbabelfish · 18/04/2019 14:48

This is horrendous. I’ve posted very civil things about needing to maintain women’s protections if the law is changed.

What this workplace is saying is that women having rights is transphobic.

I often worry about someone reporting me to work, which is why I’m careful to post only things I would say and stand by in real life. But by god, if someone did, I’d fucking fight it all the way.

Angryresister · 17/04/2019 23:21

Why are all these so called charities in thrall? So sorry for every woman that speaks up and is treated so badly, but we must continue to speak about our concerns. Bloody hard to stay strong against all the crap though.

littlbrowndog · 17/04/2019 23:04

Yeah trousering. We gotta stand strong

Am standing strong on something in sport at moment. Fuck em. This is where I will fight all it takes for sake# of young girls in sport

OldCrone · 17/04/2019 22:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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