US: Female student expelled for kneeing boy in the groin while in girls' bathroom

*if anything were to ever happen again like it. They obvously dealt with the child at the time. Dd had been afraid to defend herself at the time though as thought she'd get in trouble .

Otherwise the boys could simply do it again safe in the knowledge the girl would be afraid to fight back.

And that's the message all the children at that school have been given. Boys can be as aggressive as they want towards the girls, and if the girls fight back they'll be punished more than the boys.

And I 100% don't believe you should have been punished for what happened to you. We had something happen to dd, and I specifically told the teachers and head that dd had been instructed to shut it down as best she could (swif kick somewhere nasty) and they all agreed with me that self defence was fine.

But it wasn't just a subjective feeling of threat that caused her to hit the boy. It was a specific violent act of trapping her. Unlawful imprisonment isnt the same as just feeling threatened. If she had hit them purely for being in the toilet that would be down to a feeling. She was trying to escape and had no other means to do so.

"you had it coming so we're not doing anything to the girl". They just can't.

They can though. Self defence is different to two kids getting into a fight where both are equal parties. In your example where you were sexually touched there's no right or wrong response. Asking him politely wouldn't have worked. Locking a girl in a bathroom is a quite agressive act. If she had hit them for not letting her in the toilet because she needed to change her pad. I'd understand they have to punish her even though I'd have sympathy for the fact that she was in a shit situation to begin with. The law accounts for shades of grey with regards to retaliation and schools can do the same. Otherwise the boys could simply do it again safe in the knowledge the girl would be afraid to fight back.

Ah, sorry another cross post OldCrone

Do you think what she did was wrong? What would you have done?

I've already said I don't think she was wrong. And given an example of when I did something similar. Which, incidentally, I expected to be punished for, but wasn't because no one reported it to a teacher.

The problem is that this boy has clearly complained, and possibly his parents too, and schools have a set of guidelines they have to follow. And someone will have argued that feeling threatened doesn't justify a violent reaction. It doesn't matter that I think she was right, that the head teacher might think she was right, they're going to have to do something because it's been raised. In the states it's even easier to sue a school, and a principle will be terrified of that.

As I said, the system needs to be entirely overhauled, because the current situation is not okay.

But even within the current framework, the punishment is disproportionate and the school could have dealt with it in many less severe ways. The fact they didn't makes it even more disgraceful.

This should be seen as an act of bullying, because that's what it is. If a group of girls had barred this girl's way out of the toilets, and she had thumped one of them, what would the school have done? Would they have punished them all? Would they have punished the victim more than the bullies?

That girl did nothing wrong and if my son pulled this bullshit his life would not be worth living.

Cross-posted with your last post, Fingon.

A school cannot say to a boy who was kneed in the balls "you had it coming so we're not doing anything to the girl". They just can't.

Surely that depends on the situation - and in this one, if the reports are accurate, her actions were justified. Boys need to know that even if they thought what they were doing was harmless and they had no intention of physically attacking the girl, that what they did was wrong. The boys need to be better educated, certainly, and this should have been a good opportunity for a learning experience for them.

They can punish them both, and punish the boys more severely to show that they've provoked the situation. But they've got to be seen to be dealing with her too.

How can we teach girls to assert their boundaries and stand up for themselves if we're telling them not to fight back when they feel threatened? That if they're attacked, they might be punished if they fight back? Do you think what she did was wrong? What would you have done?

That that in turn creates a culture where girls are scared of being punished if they defend themselves is a massive issue. But it's a radical overhaul of how male aggression is viewed in schools and means the DFE and head teachers need to be firm enough to say to the parents of boys "Yes your son was hurt, but because he was acting aggressively towards a girl and we encourage girls to take appropriate action to defend themselves". Until that happens they're too scared of those parents and it's easier to justify punishing a girl for violence than to support her.

I would estimate from the responses from the mothers of boys on this thread that some parents of boys would be okay with such a speech from a HT and would deal with their sons further, but that some parents would consider this an injustice and kick up a storm. Which is why she's been expelled...

OldCrone I do actually agree with you, I think girls should be told that they do what it takes and what they need to do. No hesitation.

But from a school's perspective they have to be able to say they've dealt with the violent behaviour and that includes telling a student not to use violence. So I don't think it's the right answer, but as a response from a school it's more in line with what she did than expulsion. A school cannot say to a boy who was kneed in the balls "you had it coming so we're not doing anything to the girl". They just can't. They can punish them both, and punish the boys more severely to show that they've provoked the situation. But they've got to be seen to be dealing with her too. Especially in the litigious USA.

The other boys never touched me again. And the one who did it was ashamed and apologised. But the girls all defended him.

The boys know it's wrong. The question is, why don't the girls know it's wrong?

Taken to one side and told "understandable, but don't do it again" - Yes. Detention for violence - yes.

I disagree. She should not be told that she shouldn't use reasonable force if males are behaving aggressively towards her. This could leave her thinking that if a man was trying to rape her, she would be punished if she tried to defend herself. Telling her she can't use reasonable force to defend herself just makes her more vulnerable to male violence.

Also the mother of three boys and 100% with Guyliner on this.

At school the boys used to put their hands up our skirts if they were behind us on the way up the stairs, and down our shirts if they were behind us on the way down. One day, in year 9, a boy put his hand down my bra and I hit him so hard the whole staircase froze with the sound. You know who complained the most? The other girls. "He was only messing around" etc etc. The other boys never touched me again. And the one who did it was ashamed and apologised. But the girls all defended him.

We don't need to cheerlead and whoop about girls using violence to make boys stop whatever it is they're doing, but I do think girls need to know that if that's what it takes, then that's what it takes. And boys should be aware of that too.

She was scared, she'd had enough, they're bigger and stronger, she did what she thought would get her out of there. End of. She should not be expelled. Taken to one side and told "understandable, but don't do it again" - Yes. Detention for violence - yes. But expelled is ludicrous. I'm a secondary teacher and kids do a lot worse and get fixed term exclusion.

I give boys enough credit to think they know that a group of males locking a woman in a toilet is threatening.

If this had happened to one of the female teachers, the adult men would be sacked and in jail.

Sorry guy

I didnt finish the thread before replying and i see youve sai dthe same

See stop see!!!!

belgian

Ive no intention of arguing, we both have our opinion on this one and i doubt ether one of us will shift much at all

With the information i have been given on this thread i think group of lads refusing to let a lass OUT of the toilets is wrong

If they were stopping the girls from getting in...well I'd probably have less of a problem

stop

Im exactly the same

I do at least 3 posts at a time

Also I am a mother of sons, Ive told them that if anyone makes then feel unsafe or touches them in a way they don't feel safe they knee in the balls and run. But I've also told them that they respect other people or that they should expect to be the one kneed in the balls. It's so easy to avoid being kneed in the balls. If I was the mother of one of those boys he'd be grounded till he was 30

Im struggling to see why anyone thinks its similar

Because some people just have to take the side of boys no matter how obviously wrong they are.

If the boys had blocked her getting into the toilet it would have been rude. Blocking her from getting out however is an act of agression and Alaska is not the most progressive state. I'm confident that self defence would normally be very legal. If you kick a boy in the balls to escape you're probably pretty scared.

If they'd trapped a transgirl in the bathroom for using the girls bathrooms and got kneed in the balls for it would we be having this conversation or would they have been rightfully suspended for terrifying the kid?