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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Julian Assange

265 replies

NeurotrashWarrior · 11/04/2019 10:45

Julian Assange: Wikileaks co-founder arrested in London www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47891737

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 13/04/2019 14:17

Glosswitch comment last year seems pertinent

Julian Assange
R0wantrees · 13/04/2019 14:10

deepwatersolo
Your position & passion is clear.

Your assertions with regards Suzanne Moore's article less so.

deepwatersolo · 13/04/2019 14:04

What does this all add up to? In the big picture, this is a story about power, publishing and press freedom. A story where men tell us what matters and what doesn’t.

  1. Abbot has a penis?
  1. Maybe I missed the part where all those men told us that extradition to Sweden for the sexual abuse charges under guarantee that there will be no extradition to the US for wikileaks related stuff in unconscionable?
  1. Possibly Suzanne Moore's larger point is that the UN and international law were conjured up by males (which is probably true) and now they tell us what is and isn't important?

news.un.org/en/story/2019/04/1036491

www.un.org/en/ga/search/view_doc.asp?symbol=A/HRC/WGAD/2015/54

Frankly, I cannot follow Suzanne's reasoning. So she detests Assange, fair enough, and thinks he should long have been extradited to Sweden to face rape charges, irrespective of whether that means that Sweden might hand him over to the US, because the rape trial is more important? Is that her point?

R0wantrees · 13/04/2019 13:49

Very much reads like Suzanne Moore is trying to moot actual concerns about press freedom by using a non sequitur and a straw man combined

Having read the article, I think the points she's making are specifically about Julian Assange as an individual, sex-based power dynamics & the wider issue of the importance (or lack thereof) of women's rights.

concludes:
"What does this all add up to? In the big picture, this is a story about power, publishing and press freedom. A story where men tell us what matters and what doesn’t.

For many of us, it also looks like a deluded, creepy man who has being hiding in a cupboard is being lauded by Labours’ front bench. It looks like sexual assault against women is somehow irrelevant, and human rights don’t mean women’s rights."

deepwatersolo · 13/04/2019 13:43

but it turns out he is not under the threat of the death penalty as he always said he was. So a lot of misinformation is being mooted about press freedom – and anyone who is really concerned about press freedom should get off RT and Press TV. But let’s not go there.

Very much reads like Suzanne Moore is trying to moot actual concerns about press freedom by using a non sequitur and a straw man combined. Which is remarkable, considering the Committee to Protect Journalists does voice concerns regarding this case (see last link), and I believe Suzanne Moore considers herself a journalist, no?

Some analyses regarding the Assange extradition case's implications for press freedom can be found here:

theintercept.com/2019/04/11/the-u-s-governments-indictment-of-julian-assange-poses-grave-threats-to-press-freedoms/

www.aclu.org/news/aclu-comment-julian-assange-arrest

www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/the-indictment-of-julian-assange-is-a-threat-to-journalism

www.theguardian.com/media/2019/apr/12/julian-assange-charges-press-freedom-journalism

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/13/julian-assange-indictment-wikileaks-trump-administration-war-on-press-freedom

cpj.org/blog/2019/04/why-prosecution-julian-assange-press-freedom.php

Also, this here from Suzanne: 'Wikileaks once revealed the sexual abuses of war time. But now? Priorities chaps.' sounds like a bad faith argument, considering wikileaks can only publish what it gets access to via leaks.

R0wantrees · 13/04/2019 12:03

Suzanne Moore New Statesman:
'Wikileaks was the future once. Then it became Julian Assange
An incredible intelligence, an understanding of systems, a denial of individual feeling – and a messiah complex. It’s all a bit pre-Incel.'
(extract)
"No I don’t believe he should be extradited to America, but it turns out he is not under the threat of the death penalty as he always said he was. So a lot of misinformation is being mooted about press freedom – and anyone who is really concerned about press freedom should get off RT and Press TV. But let’s not go there.

Instead we are treated to Diane Abbot not getting her facts right. Again. Charges have not been dropped. The Swedish criminal process only charges before trial and he has been “unavailable”. The most serious charge can therefore be resumed. He could be extradited to Sweden, where he may or may not be found guilty. It could of course all come down to what that great defender of women’s rights George Galloway claimed: simply a case of “bad sexual etiquette”, he said. “I mean, not everybody needs to be asked prior to each insertion.” (continues)
www.newstatesman.com/2019/04/wikileaks-was-future-once-then-it-became-julian-assange

deepwatersolo · 13/04/2019 10:03

Snowdon who went to Russia and stopped off in China on the way. Give us a break.

is not an argument of any kind.

deepwatersolo · 13/04/2019 10:02

Talking of neocolonialism: How it it called when you prosecute and demand extradition of a journalist who is not a citizen of your state and never lived or worked in your state for some journalistic activity that is no crime in the state where said journalist works, lives, has citizenship.

MockerstheFeManist · 13/04/2019 10:01

Snowdon who went to Russia and stopped off in China on the way.

Give us a break.

deepwatersolo · 13/04/2019 09:52

And before you cite the precedent of the Penatgon Papers, bear in mind that Daniel Ellsberg freely surrendered to the court to face trial and walked free.

Ellesberg himself made the point that this is a bogus argument repeatedly, e.g. in the WP article 'Daniel Ellsberg: NSA leaker Snowden made the right call'.

www.washingtonpost.com/

The idea that all those secretive bloggers in Saudi Arabia need to turn themselves in, is absurd.

MockerstheFeManist · 13/04/2019 09:31

The Classic Position is this:

No one has the right to break the law, but everyone has a duty to defy an unjust law. Defiance of the law means you break it, surrender to the authorities without resistance, then demand the maximum penalty, as Gandhi did.

MockerstheFeManist · 13/04/2019 09:29

For those of you speculating about Sweden and its justice system would strongly suggest you read this article from 2012 which explains their procedures in detail. And make it fairly clear that hiding in the Embassy was Assange's way of not complying.

www.newstatesman.com/blogs/media/2012/09/legal-mythology-extradition-julian-assange

Judgeing Inquisitorial judicial systems by the standards of your own accusitorial system has more than a whiff of neocolonialism about it.

And before you cite the precedent of the Penatgon Papers, bear in mind that Daniel Ellsberg freely surrendered to the court to face trial and walked free.

BickerinBrattle · 13/04/2019 03:56

Yes, these same people would have denounced Daniel Ellsberg's theft from the Rand Corporation of what became the Pentagon Papers, publication of which helped turned the tide toward ending the Vietnam War.

ARDuke · 13/04/2019 03:49

Whenever a video comes to light showing the Syrian regime murdering civilians, we praise the bravery of the person who filmed it and managed to get the footage out. When the regime then arrests people for exposing their actions, we denounce the arrests as trumped up and politically motivated. It's interesting to see people do a complete U-Turn on those principles when a whistleblower exposes the war crimes of Western governments.

BickerinBrattle · 13/04/2019 03:44

Anyone imagining Assange will only face 5 years during a fair trial on a charge of hacking is kidding themselves.

In 2012 Obama signed into law the National Defense Authorization Act which included a provision allowing a US president to order the indefinite detention, without charge or trial, of any person within the boundaries of US the president decided was aiding or abetting terrorism.

Under this law, the president can also order the execution of any non-American citizen anywhere in the world if the president decides that person is aiding and abetting terrorism.

I would not be at all surprised if Trump orders Assange to be indefinitely detained. That is, if he lives long enough to be extradited: he isn't an American citizen, so Trump can legally order his assassination. I'm sure his death on British soil would create consternation, but does anyone imagine Trump would care about that?

Indefinitely detained or legally assassinated, Republicans won't protest because of Afghanistan, and because of the DNC, Democrats won't either. The US will be a few steps further down the road to hard totalitarianism, and no one will ever leak anything again.

As far as the question regarding how the US could pressure Sweden or Ecuador: I think the question reveals a real misconception regarding just how powerful America, even in decline, still is. The dollar is the world's reserve currency, and America is sovereign in her currency. In practice, what this means is that the US can have enormous effect on another country's economy. For instance, In the wake of the 2008 crash and during the Greek crisis, it was US dollar swap lines with Brussels that kept the Euro from collapse, and those swap lines stayed open for years, with the US Federal Reserve buying excess Euros to keep the Euro from losing value, until the situation stabilised, then selling them back to Brussels.)

That kind of thing can work the other way around, though. A country that can keep another currency afloat can also crash it.

stumbledin · 13/04/2019 01:14

For those of you speculating about Sweden and its justice system would strongly suggest you read this article from 2012 which explains their procedures in detail. And make it fairly clear that hiding in the Embassy was Assange's way of not complying.

www.newstatesman.com/blogs/media/2012/09/legal-mythology-extradition-julian-assange

As someone posted elsewhere if you add to gether the time he has spent in the Embassy (7 years) the 2 years he is likely to spend in prison while the extradition case is heard, and if that is sucessful and he is found guilty of computer hacking (5 years) is probably more than any sentence he would have got in Sweden on the sexual assault charges.

Sometimes I think this is about a male ego more interested in misrepresenting himself as some sort of freedom hero when the reality is he is a seedy male who didn't want this to be his record in history.

Apparently some time ago he trade marked his name!!!

FannyCann · 13/04/2019 00:07

No doubt after seven years confinement his mental health has suffered. My sympathies are with the Ecuadorians.

Assange's fetid lair: Squalid horror drove embassy to kick him out
mol.im/a/6917341

RedToothBrush · 12/04/2019 20:43

You lost me at 'Seamas Milne says'.

deepwatersolo · 12/04/2019 20:28

And his decision not to face the police regarding sexual assault charges. Let's not forget his role in all this.

To be precise, he was questioned by police while in Sweden.

www.theguardian.com/media/2019/apr/11/julian-assange-key-dates-in-wikileaks-founders-case

He was told it was ok to leave Sweden, and later, when free in the UK he repeatedly offered to undergo questioning in the embassy in Sweden.

'Stephens said Assange has repeatedly offered to meet Swedish investigators either at the Swedish embassy in London or at a police station in the UK.'

It was extraordinary that Sweden insisted he need to return to Sweden for questioning.

www.theguardian.com/media/2010/nov/18/sweden-arrest-warrant-julian-assange

You can't call that 'a decision not to face the police' in good conscience.

MrsTerryPratchett · 12/04/2019 19:20

Though the reason this was dragged out was in my view Sweden‘s decisions not to guarantee not to extradite for wikileaks related Matters).

And his decision not to face the police regarding sexual assault charges. Let's not forget his role in all this.

deepwatersolo · 12/04/2019 17:52

Well KindOfAGeek, Mueller‘s Team has already injected that Barr‘s depiction was too rosy regarding obstruction. No word they think he mischaracterized the findings (or actually Lack thereof) regarding collusion.

But we will see. I don‘t doubt Trump will at some point face charges for some illegal, corrupt business dealings (probably once out of office). But the Russia collusion ship has sailed imo. Sure, in some quarters it will live on forever, like Benghazi does among the MAGA crowd.

But, yeah, let‘s wait for the Mueller report to come out.

deepwatersolo · 12/04/2019 17:38

I mean silencing journalists is the reason for the prosecution of Assange by the US. (The reason for his Swedish prosecution or threat thereof, whatever, was his misconduct against the women, obviously. Though the reason this was dragged out was in my view Sweden‘s decisions not to guarantee not to extradite for wikileaks related Matters).

KindOfAGeek · 12/04/2019 17:22

You just described the Russiagate mania. Still waiting for Trump being marched off in handcuffs and tried for treason.

Absolute nonsense, deep. We haven't seen the Mueller report or even a summary of the report. What we have see is a letter from a guy who got his job by claiming obstruction of justice isn't a crime if a president does it. Even he had to admit Mueller did NOT exonerate Trump, and the letter also admits the was foreign (eg Russian) interference in the 2016 election. (That is what the letter says).

Very few serious persons in the Resistance were talking about carting Trump off to jail, although quite a few non-serious Internet personalities went for the meme-mified clickbait.

Assange and Manning are a new version of Sacco and Vanzetti and not much more.

Smotheroffive · 12/04/2019 17:11

Can you explain what you mean here please, instead of just expressing negatively?

Smotheroffive · 12/04/2019 17:10

His prosecution for what deep there's more than one thing in play here?

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