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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What's the bloody point in fighting the GRA changes

35 replies

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASavings · 07/04/2019 10:16

When every twat who wants a cookie from Stonewall is already acting like its already a thing?! Why does the law even allow for interpretation, it should be a blanket rule, if you are a woman's only sex segregated service you MUST NEVER ALLOW A MAN IN. That should be the law. It should be illegal in 100% of cases, not discretionary.

Not in prisons
Not n shelters
Not in hospitals
Not in toilets
Not in changing rooms
Not even if they have a GRC
Not even if they have had surgery
Not even if they seem really really like super nice and just want to be one of the girls

NOT FUCKING EVER.

We needs to ramp this shit up. It's gone too far. We need to start driving it home. Protests? Strikes? Riots? I don't fucking care anymore, it just needs to stop.

OP posts:
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ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASavings · 07/04/2019 20:41

Yup, not just violating boundaries but also gaslighting abuse victims who will almost certainly be very vulnerable to that. In fact, an extensive period of gaslighting is likely to be one of the things women escaping abuse are recovering from.

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JackyHolyoake · 07/04/2019 17:20

St Mungo's lip service and virtue signaling then .. given it permits men to violate the boundaries of women against their consent.

R0wantrees · 07/04/2019 17:03

St Mungos Womens Services:
2018 'Cat Glew, Women’s Strategy Manager for St Mungo’s, marks International Women’s Day by celebrating St Mungo’s women and the services that support them.'
(extract)
"The St Mungo’s women’s strategy is about finding and creating ways for women to recover from homelessness. Our research has shown that the causes and experiences of homelessness are different for women, so we know that the solutions for women should be different, too.

The majority of women who have slept rough have experienced violence or abuse from a partner or their family. According to figures from London’s CHAIN database, 60 per cent of women sleeping rough last year faced problems with their mental health. Safety from violence and support to deal with trauma are fundamental for women’s recovery.

So this International Women’s Day, we are celebrating our projects designed for women. St Mungo’s runs women-only projects in London and Bristol, including emergency shelters, hostels and a women’s psychotherapy service. We are also working hard to develop and improve our work with women in our mixed services." (continues)
www.mungos.org/celebrating-st-mungos-women/

TimeLady · 07/04/2019 15:29

Board and executive directors listed here

www.mungos.org/about-us/who-we-are/

These are the people making the policy, not the poor sap who's mentioned on the DM article.

Name and shame:

Howard Sinclair - Chief Executive
David Fisher – Executive Director of Services
Helen Giles – Executive Director of People and Governance
Sonia Smith – Executive Director of Finance
Rebecca Sycamore – Executive Director of Development
Dominic Williamson – Executive Director of Strategy and Policy

Board members:
Robert Napier (Chair)
Tim Gadd (Vice Chair)
Tracy Allison
Rolande Anderson
Alexandra Beidas
Dan Corry
John Maxted
Mark Pears,
Dr Helen Walters
John Watts.

GabrielleNelson · 07/04/2019 14:53

Great letter, Grabthar! (Great username too, I love Galaxy Quest.)

I've donated to St Mungo's in the past. No more unless and until this policy changes. I will write and tell them that.

I went to see my MP a few months back. It was disappointing. She had replied to my letter and I thought gave a pretty balanced response but in person it became very clear she didn't really understand the issues. Probably not surprising, given the Brexit shenanigans. I'm holding off writing to her again until we have some clarity on Brexit and MPs can start dealing with other issues.

R0wantrees · 07/04/2019 14:31

If writing to St Mungos there is relevent key background & context to thisservice suporting vulnerable women who are homeless:

Homeless Link March 2018
'Women’s Hidden Homelessness
Women’s homelessness is under-reported and frequently linked to experiences of abuse.'

(extract)
"In 2014, East London Housing Partnership set up the East London Women’s Project (ELWP), a pilot funded for 18 months by the then DCLG and delivered by St Mungo’s. ELWP provided supported accommodation for women sleeping rough with multiple disadvantage, who did not fall within the local authority duty to provide accommodation. Support was provided by an all-female specialist team in a woman-only house in the sub-region. ELWP assisted women to move on from their experience of rough sleeping and re-establish themselves, where possible to return to work, education or training.

At the point of referral primary support needs were:

Substance use 65%
Mental health 77%
Offending behaviour 58%
Domestic abuse 73%
The majority of women had multiple support needs. Before accessing ELWP, women had been squatting, sleeping rough, in prison, living in insecure accommodation, sofa surfing and for most women - a combination of these.

Anecdotal feedback from staff was that women who had not disclosed abuse at the point of referral, later disclosed violence or other forms of abuse, often extending back to childhood. For women using ELWP, rough sleeping was a symptom of the problem rather than the problem itself.

‘Most if not all of the women had a history of domestic violence and for many, this was the catalyst for their homelessness.’ ELWP Evaluation, 2016" (continues)

www.wired-gov.net/wg/news.nsf/articles/Womens+Hidden+Homelessness+01032018092500?open

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASavings · 07/04/2019 13:23

Good point, I knew I should have waited for feedback before sending it!

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JackyHolyoake · 07/04/2019 13:05

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASavings

You might want to include the fact that the only evidence that a GRC has been obtained is the Birth Certificate. [The purpose of obtaining the GRC is to be able to change the BC.]

RosaWaiting · 07/04/2019 12:55

OP thanks for the thread and all the information

I will certainly start emailing

MP has been absolutely useless - probably because he agrees with the whole self defining thing.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASavings · 07/04/2019 12:54

Woman's Aid contacts:

England: [email protected]

RoI: [email protected]

Federation Northern Ireland: [email protected]

Scotland: [email protected]

Wales: [email protected]

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ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASavings · 07/04/2019 12:49

Proposed letter to Woman's Aid or any other woman's shelter (basically the same as above but edited to be shelter specific):

Dear Madam/Sir,

I have recently learned that you are allowing men who identify as women to access your shelters. The fact that you have seemingly not considered the impact of this on vulnerable women is frankly astonishing. The danger these men pose to women is self evident, and I am disgusted that an organisation that claims to support the most vulnerable in our society is complicit in putting yet more barriers in place against women seeking safety and support.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind you of the following relevant legislation:

  1. Regarding provisions for transpeople, only gender reassignment is legally recognised as a protected characteristic. Neither "gender" not "gender identity" are recognised.
  1. The Equality Act 2010 states that:

"A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex."

This does not mean that a person is able to self identify as the opposite sex, and expect to be immediately treated as such. The Gender Recognition Act is very clear than in order to be considered "undergoing" or "proposing to undergo" gender reassignment, and thus be eligible for a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC), the person must meet all of the following criteria:

(a) has or has had gender dysphoria.
(b) has lived in the acquired gender throughout the period of two years ending with the date on which the application is made.
(c) intends to continue to live in the acquired gender until death.

This means that by law a man who does not meet these requirements should be treated as a man for the purposes of providing sex segregated services (see below).

  1. The Equality Act 2010 makes it clear in Schedule 3, part 7, paragraph 26, that:

"A provider can deliver separate services for men and women where providing a combined service would not be as effective. A provider can deliver separate services for men and women in different ways or to a different extent where providing a combined service would not be as effective and it would not be reasonably practicable to provide the service otherwise than as a separate service provided differently for each sex. In each case such provision has to be justified."

It also says that single sex services are permitted (amongst other reasons) if:

"they may be used by more than one person and a woman might object to the presence of a man (or vice versa)"

Clearly permitting men into a shelter for women escaping domestic abuse renders the service less effective. Clearly women who are vulnerable and have suffered trauma at the hands of men will object to the inclusion of men in your services, even if (as many won't) they do not feel empowered to voice this objection.

The act even gives shelters for women as a specific example of when this exception should be applied:

"These exceptions would allow (...) a domestic violence support unit to be set up by a local authority for women only but there is no men-only unit because of insufficient demand."

Clearly the provision of sex segregated spaces in this case is fully justified.

To conclude, a man who self-declares himself to be a woman, but who cannot provide evidence of a GRC or who does not meet the eligibility criteria for an application for a GRC, must by law be considered a man and not a woman. Admission of such individuals to single sex service provisions, such as shelters for women escaping domestic abuse, is in contradiction with the Equality Act and a violation of the rights of women to be afforded special protections on the basis of their sex.

I would be grateful if you could respond to this email detailing how you propose to address this situation in a manner which prioritises the safety of vulnerable women.

Yours faithfully,

OP posts:
Roomba · 07/04/2019 12:41

That letter is brilliant and can be adjusted for use with other organisations who wilfully misunderstand the law and proudly state they comply with the law when they don't even understand the difference between sex, gender, gender identity and gender reassignment. Christ, we even have judges misinterpreting and misapplying the law at times.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASavings · 07/04/2019 12:39

St Mungos contact:

[email protected]

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ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASavings · 07/04/2019 12:37

Proposed letter to St Mungos:

Dear Madam/Sir,

I have recently learned that you are allowing men who identify as women to access your women only hostels, even if these men are convicted perpetrators of domestic abuse. The fact that you have seemingly not considered the impact of this on vulnerable women is frankly astonishing. The danger these men pose to women is self evident, and I am disgusted that an organisation that claims to support the most vulnerable in our society is complicit in putting yet more barriers in place against women seeking safety and support.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind of the following relevant legislation:

  1. Regarding provisions for transpeople, only gender reassignment is legally recognised as a protected characteristic. Neither "gender" not "gender identity" are recognised.
  1. The Equality Act 2010 states that:

"A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex."

This does not mean that a person is able to self identify as the opposite sex, and expect to be immediately treated as such. The Gender Recognition Act is very clear than in order to be considered "undergoing" or "proposing to undergo" gender reassignment, and thus be eligible for a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC), the person must meet all of the following criteria:

(a) has or has had gender dysphoria.
(b) has lived in the acquired gender throughout the period of two years ending with the date on which the application is made.
(c) intends to continue to live in the acquired gender until death.

This means that by law a man who does not meet these requirements should be treated as a man for the purposes of providing sex segregated services (see below).

  1. The Equality Act 2010 makes it clear in Schedule 3, part 7, paragraph 26, that:

"A provider can deliver separate services for men and women where providing a combined service would not be as effective. A provider can deliver separate services for men and women in different ways or to a different extent where providing a combined service would not be as effective and it would not be reasonably practicable to provide the service otherwise than as a separate service provided differently for each sex. In each case such provision has to be justified."

It also says that single sex services are permitted (amongst other reasons) if:

"they may be used by more than one person and a woman might object to the presence of a man (or vice versa)"

Clearly permitting men, especially men with a history of violence towards women, into a women's only hostel renders the service less effective. Clearly women who are vulnerable and likely to have suffered trauma at the hands of men will object to the inclusion of men in your services, even if (as many won't) they do not feel empowered to voice this objection.

The act even gives hostels for women facing homelessness as a specific example of when this exception should be applied:

"It would not be unlawful for a charity to set up separate hostels, one for homeless men and one for homeless women, where the hostels provide the same level of service to men and women because the level of need is the same but a unisex hostel would not be as effective."

Clearly the provision of sex segregated spaces in this case is fully justified.

To conclude, a man who self-declares himself to be a woman, but who cannot provide evidence of a GRC or who does not meet the eligibility criteria for an application for a GRC, must by law be considered a man and not a woman. Admission of such individuals to single sex service provisions, such as hostels for women facing homelessness, is in contradiction with the Equality Act and a violation of the rights of women to be afforded special protections on the basis of their sex.

I would be grateful if you could respond to this email detailing how you propose to address this situation in a manner which prioritises the safety of vulnerable women.

Yours faithfully,

OP posts:
MsJeminaPuddleduck · 07/04/2019 12:29

The whole shit show is built on misogyny and has gone on for far too long.

This ⬆️

I will happily fight alongside it for 3rd spaces and I will never countenance people being treated differently for how they choose to express themselves - but we need our spaces back.

We had the experiment. We weren't consulted but we tried it nevertheless. Vulnerable women are not safe. Our dignity and privacy is not respected and the legal protection we were led to believe we had is not sufficient. Our letters are ignored. Our MPs don't represent us. The left wing media shut us down. Corporates and even the police act preemptively to shame us in case we ask embarrassing questions.

It is not ok. None of this is ok

BadPennyNoBiscuit · 07/04/2019 12:02

Yes, I support that.

RepealTheGRA · 07/04/2019 11:59

What JackyHolyoake said

JackyHolyoake · 07/04/2019 11:59

And, maybe we should ask Women's Aid to change its name since it is no longer a women's organisation?

JackyHolyoake · 07/04/2019 11:57

Further, we need to dispense with all "case-by-case" thinking since as soon as that thought occurs a women's space becomes a mixed sex space immediately. The rule need to be that the Equality Act Exceptions take primacy over every other consideration.

The legitimate aim is the safety, wellbeing, privacy and dignity of the female sex

The proportionate means to achieve that is a blanket exclusion of the male sex in all circumstances.

A woman's space immediately ceases to be a woman's space as soon as any male enters it.

JackyHolyoake · 07/04/2019 11:51

Perhaps the lawyers among us can get together and explain to Women's Aid how the Equality Act 2010 functions with specific regard to women's shelters etc so that they understand that to exclude male transitioners with or without a GRC in all and any of those environments is perfectly lawful.

The single-sex exemptions provides protection for all women's safe spaces: hospitals, prisons, probation hostels, shelters, changing rooms. toilets etc .

The managements of all these spaces are in breach of the Equality Act by way of their failure to uphold the provisions within that law.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASavings · 07/04/2019 11:48

Oh yeh, I definitely agree that we need to keep fighting AnyOldPrion it's just so bloody demoralising to see the shit we're fighting against happening before the thing is even a thing!

BadPennyNoBiscuit I think you're right. If Karen White didn't wake people up then nothing will. But what new approach can we take? I personally think we need to start loud public demonstrations/ protests. It won't help the "angry feminazi/ hysterical women" image, but what the fuck else can we do to get heard?!

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RepealTheGRA · 07/04/2019 11:47

Not only do we need to be objecting to changes, we need to be campaigning for repeal. The whole shit show is built on misogyny and has gone on for far too long.

There is no one thing that will wake people up, it will be different things for different people, but people are waking up all the time. The rad female saw that gender and the whole ideology was oppressive years ago. Prisons, sports, refuges they’re all waking different people up. Safeguarding of children is waking people up, medical ethics, academic freedoms, free speech, science denial, the fact that ‘pronoun badges’ are just farcical BS has woken up even those who don’t care about women and children. It WILL reach critical mass because there are so many problems with this ideology.

Keep writing, keep protesting.

lilymaynard.com/ Was involved in down view prison protest.

getthelout.wordpress.com/contact/ Protested pride

100K+ responded to the GRA consultation and I’m pretty sure far more people suggested repeal than they were expecting.

Keep writing to MP’s and keep the pressure up, keep educating the public.

AnyOldPrion · 07/04/2019 11:35

In answer to your thread title, I think objecting to GRA changes remains an essential project. I objected at the time to those who argued it was just about paperwork and that the changes would make no difference because most of them were already being applied.

Changing the law gives the ultimate red light to all those who are currently flouting it. And it’s not a standalone legal change. It’s part of an unprecedentedly rapid set of changes and tweaks to the laws, most of which were brought in under the radar.

I know you know this and I agree more action is required, but loud and ongoing objection to self-ID is still required, despite the fact that many organisations are acting as if it’s already a done deal. You you probably didn’t intend to imply we shouldn’t object, but I wanted to clarify my thoughts on why it’s so incredibly important.

BadPennyNoBiscuit · 07/04/2019 11:28

Feminists will always be in the minority, because we have a personality type that can see through the bullshit and can't stomach living a lie.
The majority want to keep their heads down and go with the flow and hope it will all turn out alright in the end. And shut their eyes to any harm done and hope it will all get sorted by someone else.

This is why we keep saying 'that will be the thing that will make everyone wake up''. We really need to let go of that. There is no one thing that will make everyone wake up.
Stonewall and WA are not the answer, their resources are now in full use promoting this agenda. We can't persuade them to do the right thing, they are too afraid of the consequences of not toeing the line.

We need a completely new approach.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 07/04/2019 11:17

Check carefully where your money and support goes. Let organisations know why to feel morally unable to support them. Let others know too.

This is what I do. I make sure I check carefully. I won’t be complicit in allowing men to shit on woman rights.

If those male bodied persons were really women (as we are told so forcefully) they’d feel this too, no? The charities such as stonewall have more than enough money to lobby for/provide trans women (they don’t care about trans men) spaces. But it’s not about safety or security is it? It’s about stealing women’s rights and bullying them.

It’s like a bullying boss/teacher who knows they can treat you like crap and you can’t fight back. Until you do.