WPUK meeting in London 20 May with Meghan Murphy, Julie Bindel, Selina Todd

It did feel a bit stage managed and that first question was divisive.

Sadly, WPUK facilitated that division, which seems to suggest that the negotiating skills may be somewhat lacking.

What WPUK may need to do now is to issue a genuine and public apology to those women who went to Washington DC for the gross misinterpretation that arose and for the division it facilitated yesterday so as to put the matter to rest once and for all.

I was surprised that almost all the questions read out came from people whose names I knew. It did feel a bit stage managed and that first question was divisive. It's a shame this is all taking attention away from such a great meeting.

I was in the pub briefly beforehand, couldn't stay afterwards unfortunately. Selina Todd was fantastic. She must be a wonderful teacher. Must read some of her work.

it's highly unlikely it wasn't a strategic move too.

It's a flawed strategy then.

By all accounts 500 women sat in a church as members of an audience last evening. Does that mean that all those women are now god-worshippers?

It makes them no more god-worshippers than it makes those three women who sat in the audience at the Heritage Foundation being described as "working with the USA right wing".

A venue is a venue. Nothing more, nothing less.

Further, if WPUK is populated with such experienced trade unionists / negotiators, perhaps some of those women can negotiate with others among them to apologise for the mistake made in January and put the matter to rest instead of facilitating the egos of some others to resurrect it.

No argument from me on that one Jacky

It was a dick move, but we all make them occasionally!

Indeed! And it seems the original "dick move" occurred in January when certain people grossly misinterpreted the actions of three women who went to Washington DC and were deeply embarrassed by their misinterpretation when the facts of the matter became known.

I missed what happened?

Like everyone, they’re not perfect

It was a dick move, but we all make them occasionally!

For what it is worth, I am deeply disappointed that WPUK chose to spoil what seemed to be a mostly interesting evening and engage in middle school playground antics last night with that question from Hatchett. I had thought better of WPUK, which is a misplaced sentiment, it seems.

I agree that it felt the ‘question’ from Jean felt a little stage managed. Also there should be supplementary questions allowed, WPUK are experienced trade unionists and speakers. I would have liked to hear their take on David Davies, or Julie’s on the Daily Mail, or whatever Julia Long, if it was her (I couldn’t see her, and wouldn’t have known who it was if someone hadn’t told me) shouted out.

This tiny moment aside, it was a fantastic evening. I can’t wait for the speeches to be released. We shouldn’t get caught up in petty squabbles, I don’t believe that any of us are that far apart.

We cannot talk about lack of respectful behaviour from MRA and then not treat each other with respect.

I thought it was an amazing event. Such a brilliant feeling of sisterhood.

I thought the question was a real shame, it would have been far better to have questions from some "ordinary" woman, not planted from well known people in the movement.

Julia Long was like a petulant teenager

I was there too, upper level in a very green top about 2 rows behind Debbie Hayton.

Selina and Maya were inspirational speakers. I couldn't really hear Megan that well tbh. Julie was great too.

I think it's the first time since leaving high school that I've been around so many women and so few men, which overwhelmed me. I wish I'd gone to the pub but I got a bit shy.

The only person I really spoke with was the man sat next to me. It was his birthday but he didnt want to miss the opp to support WPUK. He was so nice, he even gave me a Woman Adult Human Female pen! So thanks P!

I agree that Jean Hatchetts question was a deliberate wind up and unnecessary. I think it was designed to provoke and I can't be doing with that nonsense. Julia Long was sitting near me and seemed to be very cross the entire evening. This is a much bigger issue that left/right, and as a PP said, women can talk to whoever they bloody well like.

It was though, a fantastic evening. I'm still pretty new to all this and I learnt so much. Really inspirational. Pub was great too!

Suffragettes, suffragists, WFL - there was infighting then too but they all helped women's liberation gain traction.

I thought it was great but I didn't like that the questions were pre-moderated and read out. Women at the meeting should also get the chance to speak.

I think we shouldn't be telling each other what not to do. JB says she writes for the DM because it's better than preaching to the choir and there are good opportunities to speak with conservative women who would not normally listen to the viewpoints of feminists. Miriam Ben-Shalom does this and you must think there might be women (especially lesbians in the closet) who have never interacted with a woman like her and might find it eye-opening.

People can play different roles, we don't all need to do the same thing.

WPUK may talk about choosing their allies but the left hasn’t raised a finger to help them - unless you count wagging one in disapproval.

Anyway sounds like a great night. The disagreements only get to me when one group starts trying to tell another what to do. Feminists could start an argument in church. It’s always been like that and I think it’s both a strength and a weakness.

I needed last night for its optimism and feeling of support.

However, for all those who felt a change, part of me was thinking, "What?!?". Georgia, what it happening in so many countries, the sheer number of obstacles facing women because we are needing to fight again for the rights that are being taken away rather than dedicate ourselves to new fights.

I'm in some sympathy with this Twitter thread: twitter.com/marstrina/status/1130741319725400064?s=20

Last night one of the speakers, Selina I think, said "look what can be achieved in two years!". It's a rousing sentiment, but it's not actually true - not if we zoom out and look at the movement as a collective entity with a temporal dimension.

It's two years of WPUK work, & sterling work it is too! But it's also 40 years of Janice Raymond's work, & twenty years of Julie's work, & at least a decade but probably longer of Karen Ingala-Smith's work, & five years (or more? When was the first FIL?) of Lisa-Marie's work... [cont]

The decision to read out Jean Hatchett's very pointed question was extremely mischievous (to put it mildly), given what we all know about the relationship between SFW and WPUK. Personally, I thought it was a rude and very divisive thing to do. These are desperate times and we need all the allies we can get, wherever they are and whatever their politics. WPUK can concentrate on their left-wing credentials and their purity, and pick and choose who their allies are but I fear it will not necessarily help us win this battle.

Apart from that it was an absolutely splendid meeting and I came away thoroughly inspired, most especially by the lovely Selina and Julie Bindel, of course. I'm sorry I didn't go to the pub afterwards, now.

There’s not just 1 axis is there? There’s left and right, but also authoritarian and libertarian, and other axis besides

Which is to say, like anything important it’s not simple, which is why I wouldn’t give a simple yes or no answer to the question ‘should feminists work with the right?’

I don't see why believing women don't have penises and that you can't actually change sex has anything to do with party politics and traditional views of left v right.
I've probably moved politically to the right over the last couple of years as I feel the left have become increasingly intolerant and opposed to free speech and more inclined to witch hunt women who won't spout mantras than the right.

@LadyPrinceSexual Jane Clare Jones was there!

I managed a few words with her before I had to flit and on the way there I managed to tag into a group en route that included Rosa F.

It's a shame there's no obvious way of detecting MNetters.

Megan astutely highlighted that one was about short term tactics, the other long-term strategy.

We are facing a struggle on so many fronts (including the environment and the reality that NCDs are a global emergency#) that I feel have to be able to converse with others with whom we are aligned on particular issues, must as we might abhor other policies. No - I would be horrified to be claimed as an ally be the Neo-liberalists but the ability of groups you loathe to claim ownership of single issues will not stop. The drive towards political purity leads to extremism within parties and bitter rifts between those who could form a useful, strategic alliance on particular topics.

There never has been a political manifesto with which I wholly agree but on balance I vote for the party whose values are most aligned with mine.

Would this issue be on the public agenda in even a limited way if it had been left up to BBC coverage, the unions, the parties? The Times, Spectator, Telegraph and others have had the moral courage to do what other media have not.

And, if we don't support other women, because they are right-wing or RCP or [X which doesn't align with my personal values] then I'm minded of Andrea Dworkin:

My hatred is precious,”...“I don’t want to waste it on those who are colluding in their own oppression. My hatred is geared towards the men that put that crap in their heads, and the ones doing the raping.”

“Women discovered each other,” she wrote in 1974 of the early women’s movement, “for truly no oppressed group had ever been so divided and conquered.”

#See Rachel Nugent's excellent recent lecture:
2019 UCL Lancet Lecture: NCDs as a global emergency - closer to pandemic or climate change?

Speaker: Dr Rachel Nugent, Vice President for Global Non-communicable Diseases at RTI :

I was near Julia long and I thought she called Julie Bindle out on writing for the daily mail.

I guess with any movement there's disagreements, but some of the in fighting depresses me. There were so many brilliant people there last night. So many brave people who've had such shit thrown at them for standing up for their beliefs.

The incredible maniacmagpie
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3491136-amazing-woman-carries-out-one-woman-protest-against-women-s-march-menstruators?pg=3&order=

The legend that is Lesley
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3574935-London-TERFs-crash-Mayday-march-hilarious-write-up-about-ReSisters-just-being-present

Rosa F, Helen steel, Sarah d, debbie, glinner. The whole of the panel AND Julia long.