WPUK meeting in London 20 May with Meghan Murphy, Julie Bindel, Selina Todd

MissEyre did I annoy you? She did give me some stickers, which made me very happy (I'm easily pleased)!

I've never really understood why evangelical Christians in the US ally themselves with the Republican party.

This is a really complicated thing, because there have been changes over time, but a lot of people don't realise that until abortion was a hot-button issue in politics, the Democrats were the party of many Christians, especially Catholics, but also some others. In a real way the Republicans used that issue, which was so fundamental to many, to get those votes even though they were not aligned in other ways. Over time many of those people began to associate themselves more with the Republicans and so their other political views shifted.

Evangelical Christianity in the US though is very much an American invention, its a radical individualist interpretation of Christianity that quietly (or not) dropped many of the elements that emphasise collectivity in mainline Christianity. The American approach to secularism is also different to the British or European approach and tends to favour religion as an individualist endeavour rather than something with a social element.

People are allowed to disagree on the best way to go about things. We are all striving for a similar goal.

Agreed. Issues of superiority and inferiority need to be avoided if we are to express our rejection of patriarchy. Issues of division need to avoided if we are to express our rejection of patriarchy.

However, the history of WPUK behaviour and that of its associates in January 2019 and beyond does suggest that it views its approach as superior to others.

Andrea Dworkin expressed it better than any, I think:

I was sat near Julia, and went into the event behind her and she didn't seem happy through it all to be honest. It wasn't just that question.

Maybe WPUK do want to distance themselves from people with different approaches to this. I got no impression at all that WPUK think they are superior.

People are allowed to disagree on the best way to go about things. We are all striving for a similar goal.

Following the hash tag as I was, I'm looking forward to watching Todd when they get the video up

It was brilliant and definitely going to get her book that you recommended.

The Alabama abortion situation is awful, however that has nothing to do with political institutions in the UK. The Conservatives are not anti-abortion. It has more to do with religious views. Most practising Roman Catholics are anti-abortion however they vote, ditto Muslims. I'm sure there will be pro-choice republicans in America. I've never really understood why evangelical Christians in the US ally themselves with the Republican party. What does believing Jesus rose again etc have to do with your views on the merits of capitalism and wealth redistribution and the pros and cons of state owned companies?

I personally think she deserved to have a right of reply to the dig which was partially aimed at her.

Exactly so. WPUK could have dismissed that question and chosen another that avoided division. So, it leaves the impression that WPUK wants division and asserts itself as superior. Superiority V Inferiority is a very patriarchal concept.

Julia Long was like a petulant teenager

I personally think she deserved to have a right of reply to the dig which was partially aimed at her.

I don't think any questions should be off limits. I also think WPUK are entitled to shape the agenda and set out their position at their own event.

I think all the speakers were entitled to voice their personal opinions, provided (and I wasn't there) they made it clear that these were opinions and not instructions.

I only object if they try to undermine the work of other women.

For the record, it was me who organised and funded the WPUK meeting in Birmingham in March 2018.

At that time I had no idea that WPUK would assert itself as being superior to other women activists. Had that been obvious at the time I would never have organised and funded such a meeting.

I have so much respect for so many people that were there.

As do I, Katvon.

My deep regret is that WPUK deliberately facilitated division which was entirely avoidable.

Sorry for the typo Jacky

So you didn't go. A shame. It was an amazing event. So many fabulous people in the audience too, sheros.

I wouldn't have changed a thing about last night, maybe only to have more time debating and discussing with people afterwards. I have so much respect for so many people that were there.

Given there was nearly 500 people in that space and you'd have needed to get mics to anyone asking questions, it would have been a faff, especially upstairs. I am sincerely glad that it didn't go on, and on.

Given that WPUK chose that venue and knew its layout, it is not beyond organisation to have been able to facilitate audience questions by having at least one microphone available on the ground floor and another in the gallery.

Did you go jackie?

[Psst! It's Jacky!]

I was unable to attend eventually so asked for my ticket to be passed to someone else.

"Maya gave me three of her 'Radicalised by Mumsnet' stickers!!"

Did you go jackie?

Patriarchal

The speeches were excellent. The atmosphere was excellent. The pub was excellent. Plenty of discussions going on there I can assure you.

Given there was nearly 500 people in that space and you'd have needed to get mics to anyone asking questions, it would have been a faff, especially upstairs. I am sincerely glad that it didn't go on, and on.

The questions were fine. I thought the panel gave different opinions so it wasn't one sided.

It was a great night, thanks WPUK for organising.

Feminists need to create separate and different structures perhaps?

By this, I mean structures that avoid hierarchical [patriarchal] positions:

dominant V subordinate;

superior V inferior.

and also a feeling of being talked at, not so much by the speakers but by the fact that we couldn’t speak from the floor.

Yes, it's all very patriarchal isn't it?

Perhaps that is what happens when some women are entrenched in political structures that are designed by men for the benefit of men. The Unions movement is one such political structure. Political parties are another.

Feminists need to create separate and different structures perhaps?

I have to say that although I enjoyed the speakers, I don’t think I would engage more fully with WPUK. I wish them well and believe women should be free to choose how they address patriarchy, I felt there was some incitement of division and also a feeling of being talked at, not so much by the speakers but by the fact that we couldn’t speak from the floor.

Agree with those who are saying that the first question was the only sour note. I do understand that there are feminists out there whose conception of feminism is of it being bound up with the Labour movement (Selina Todd explores this brilliantly) which does not match with my primary motivation for involvement here: as a parent, as a teacher, I am in this for safeguarding and I’d work with anyone to stop the damage to children that’s occurred as part of this movement.

These divisions have always existed however - as Flo says, maybe it’s inevitable; maybe it makes us stronger.

And, a further point:

WPUK chose a church for its venue last evening. Those three women who went to Washington DC had no influence whatsoever over the choice of the Heritage Foundation as the venue for the meeting about the harms done to children via the transgender ideology and practice.

Given that two of those three women are mothers of children why would they not attend a meeting about the harms done to children via transgender ideology and practice? Their own children are subject to indoctrination in our schools in UK to this ideology and practice imported from USA.