Does feminism take age and experience?

No worries.

Ah, okay. Apologies, it sort of went over my head.

But I also want some acknowledgement of the way that men''s policing also affects women. I seem to be the only one.

I have only ever heard men refer to women as 'fish' or say vaginas smell bad. Obviously NAMALT, but they don't have to all be like that to give a great number of women paranoia complexes.

I have only heard men say "urgh she's got a 'tache, she''s nasty".

I have only ever heard men say women who don't have brazillian/Hollywood waxing as having "massive fannies".

I first heard of 'gunt' and 'fupa' from men.

First time I heard of 'bingo wings' was through that little twerp on Bo Selecta.

Etc

Etc

Etc.

Men are not all bloody sweetness.

And plenty of women are supportive and encourage other women too.

Sigh. Most feminists don’t hate men. We have fathers, husbands, sons and brothers.

We object to being treated as lesser than men, just because we are women, and to answer the OP no, I don’t think you need to be old to realise this. It’s just that with age and experience, we have experienced a lot more of the crap.

What some of us have tried to point out is that when women do police other women’s appearance, it’s still based upon patriarchal standards. (Or assumed standards).

Hi jurgen don't take it personally.

I am taking the piss out of everyone.
It's a blind spot.

Lots of people on this thread are talking about how women are the ones who are worse for judging/policing women.

I don't see anyone steaming in and saying:

"Something tells me you don’t like women, [pick any poster who weights the blame for women's oppression upon women]. Call it a hunch. Do you ever have a single positive thing to say?

I think we need a bit of balance to the woman-blaming.

Wow. That's not even a straw man. It's full Worzel Gummidge, complete with interchangeable heads. And as for this;

Answer me this. If women police other women's appearances more then men, then why are het women and gay men (who aim to appeal to men) bound up in more time-consuming, painful, dangerous beauty regimes and are full of bodily insecurities, than straight men and lesban women (who aim to appeal to women)?

Based on what exactly? Your feelings? Your anecdotes? Scientific data?

After me:

We must all be lovely obedient handmaids and place all blame for the perpetuation of women's oppression squarely on the the shoulders of women and girls!

Male behaviour must never be acknowledged, named or criticised!

We must never hurt male feelings!

We are so lucky they are nice to us!

Women are the real bitches!

As in antifeminist bingo!

Bingo!

Something tells me you don’t like men, WeRiseUp. Call it a hunch. Do you ever have a single positive thing to say?

Men aren’t that bothered about the beauty standards, and for the most part it’s not men enforcing them.

This is a myth as far as I am concerned. If you watch Gogglebox for example, the men are just as judgemental and cruel about women's looks as the women (maybe even more so?).

Men lean out of cars and shout "fat slag" or "ugly bitch". I have heard a lot more men go "ugh!" about women who don't conform. Men have all sorts of horrid nicknames for women's different body types that they generally don't tell women. Men moan at women for not shaving their legs or their pubes. Men get in a panic if they fear their girlfriend 'isn't good looking enough'. They are a bunch of fucking liars saying they don't care - it's just women that do- they don't have the moral high ground.

Answer me this. If women police other women's appearances more then men, then why are het women and gay men (who aim to appeal to men) bound up in more time-consuming, painful, dangerous beauty regimes and are full of bodily insecurities, than straight men and lesban women (who aim to appeal to women)?

Well it’s sognificsbtly better than the anorexic chic of the 90s and 00s. These days everyone is much more health conscious, the big bum aesthetic is a part of that (these being big toned muscular bums with a natural healthy layer of fat). Of course it’s sad that these girls care so much about receiving Male attention but self confidence usually comes from experience. Most of them calm down after experiencing a loving relationship just like the waifs of times past. The changing aesthetic is a red herring.

I do know a lot of young women (all very educated) who are obsessed with the perfect proposal, the perfect wedding, massively into gender stereotypes and all that jazz in a way I and my friends 20/25 years ago never were.

Interesting observation Danglingmod. I think there is certainly more pressure on them to conform these ways, even though many don’t. It’s totally their choice but has it increased the number of people who feel they are not in the ‘right’ gender for them? There have been lots of posts about ‘gender bending’ (as they called it) pop stars in the 1970s and ‘80s who never stopped identifying themselves as men.

I just don't get the hypersensitivity about deconstructing the pressure to live up to beauty standards on a feminist forum.

Men aren’t that bothered about the beauty standards, and for the most part it’s not men enforcing them. To be clear, by beauty standards I mean all the things women do in pursuit of being ‘more attractive’ (mainly futile, as you’re as attractive as you are, more or less).

The fact that attractiveness is disproportionately valued above other attributes - particularly in women - is a different, though related, issue.

Heterosexual men find women sexually attractive, and are attracted to attractive women. It’s within the power of women to call time on time- and money-consuming beauty standards, yet it goes on and on.

The hypersensitivity, I think, comes from many radfem-leaning women being more bought in to the standards than they care to admit, adopting what amounts to a lib-fem ‘choice’ position.

Honestly, I felt a bit got-at during Sheila Jeffreys’s talk at LAWS Rad Fem 101, but that is because she was 100% correct in what she said. I’m grateful to her for bringing the discomfort; that she and others were doing it back in the day has created space for me to buy in as little as I do.

The boys of Love Island - image warning, some bare flesh if you are at work;

static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2017/07/28/10/new-boys.jpg

Just your average lads off the street? I think the pressure on young people to aspire to this kind of thing has changed out of all proportion in the last decade. Add into the lads' culture of gyms, dodgy internet food supplements and illegal steroids causing lasting body damage, and you have a serious problem for both sexes.

On second thoughts, in my previous post change 'more seriously' to 'additionally' .... the objectification and control are serious matters too.

I dunno. Loads of fashion designers are men and there is always pressure for models to fit in clothes not suitable for adult women. Models are humiliated trying to put on a skirt that would only fit a girl or a man's hips, for example.

In music videos male pop stars have women looking a certain way to demonstrate their status amongst men and
their control of obedient women.

Although I don't watch love Island or what have you, i'd be pretty suprised if the blokes there aren't showing preference for a prized 'type' of woman.

Boys bully girls all the time for their looks. It's often dads and brothers who are responsible for shaming girls into seeking labiaplasty.

Porn created by and for men shows women with no body hair, fake breasts, etc.

There is enormous pressure from men to make young women feel inadequate and shit about themselves. It is an important weapon of male domination of women and girls.

Women might police one another and be mean about not measuring up, but that suits men juuuuust fine. Squabble amongst yourselves girlies and uh huh, suck ma dick.

While I agree that on the whole, men aren’t that bothered what women wear and that peer pressure from other women and girls has a greater influence, ingrained misogyny still has the upper hand.

(Some) Women tell other women what to wear to please the patriarchy.

It can take time to see this though.

Yes. Harmful practices like 'waist trainers' are a different thing to wearing a short skirt to piss off your mum. It crosses into masochistic self-punishment for failing at unattainable beauty standards.

However just on this interaction, I don't see what's wrong with it really. You commented that back in the day, it was in fashion (ie: desired by men) to have a small bum. They commented that now it's in fashion to have a big bum. In a conversation about what looks are in fashion the reply makes sense.

I'm not sure men care much about fashion, except if they're viewing women and girls as trophies. More seriously, while theres nothing wrong with being interested in clothes and makeup, it could get literally unhealthy if body modification is involved - 'waist trainers' at night for instance.

I’ve been in many thoughtful and interesting conversations about the pressures on women - of all ages - to look a certain way. But I find them more constructive when they happen away from FWR. Make of that what you will.

As for the op’s question - I’m no expert but, whatever they may tell you, I doubt whether teenage girls are really experimenting with clothes and make up to please men. I imagine they’re doing it for a host of reasons but largely the age-old ones: to copy their friends and piss off their mothers. Social media has broadened the definition of ‘friends’ but I don’t think the motivation has changed. As for pissing off your mum - I was fortunate in that all I had to do to was wear a short skirt and play loud music but the bar’s much higher now. And if they don’t seem to be feminists - well some progress has been made which means many of them haven’t brushed up against the patriarchy yet. Give them time and they will.

Reading the thread title, I though yes, in some ways you do, although that's not to say that young women can't be very very informed and believe in feminism.

However just on this interaction, I don't see what's wrong with it really. You commented that back in the day, it was in fashion (ie: desired by men) to have a small bum. They commented that now it's in fashion to have a big bum. In a conversation about what looks are in fashion the reply makes sense.

University and exposure to some feminist writing was the key for me. Feminist literature explained feelings I had had about things through my teenage years but hadn't been able to put into words myself, especially harassment and my hatred of pornography. Becoming a mother was the next big awakening and realising how everything suddenly divided back into male and female down horribly stereotypical lines. I also think that years of watching the news and seeing the constant stream of warmongering by males the planet over also jades one a little over time.

I was a feminist from an early age, my mother was happier in jeans and a sweater than a skirt, and my father encouraged my interest in science. Made a feminist stand in High School against gendered activities (cooking and sewing for girls only etc) which changed policy and was outspoken in PSE lessons about the roles we were expected to play. I heard later some of my teachers were secretly cheering me on. I read Susie Orbach and Germaine Greer in my 20s but would have until more recently considered myself more libfem. Pornography and peak trans has definitely turned me to the radical side.

I think it depends upon the circle you are in and your own viewpoint. Really not sure how I got in to feminism, Germaine Greer and Simone de Beauvoir as a student as none of my friends were that bothered. We weren't big on fashion though and no-one had much money. There were no feminist societies at my uni and it was pre-internet so I just read books and went to poetry readings and the NFT on my own. I was quite an odd student in retrospect but still had friends and boyfriends. I didn't socialise with many older women at all