Any insight? Attack on Coron Kraatz

. They don't chuck both sexes in together and declare attacks shouldn't happen, just because.

Show me the proof that they did chuck the sexes in together.

And the other times Coron was attacked was in the street and in the park. Should they be sex segregated spaces too then? What excuses can you make for why those incidents happened?

Barracker

The whole of your post rests on your presumption that Coron's changing room was accessed via the female changing room.

You have absolutely no proof of that. At my gym, which is a school open to the public out of school hours, there is male and female changing rooms but both are open plan, no private rooms in either. But they form a kind of suite of changing facilities, I guess you could describe it? So dry and wet changing rooms for males and females (sex segregated) plus male and female toilets. You access these changing rooms via a door off the main corridor and then each changing area is off of another corridor.

I would describe myself as walking through the changing rooms to get to the female changing rooms. I wouldn't have actually walked through any changing room though but rather through the changing suite.

I still think that this is a minor issue. In regards to this attack the fault lies entirely with the person who did it. There is no justification for what they did and I stand by any person capable on stamping on someone's head is not a safe person for anyone to be around.

It seems like you are trying very hard to suggest that Coron was in the female changing room but I can't understand why. Do you think if she were that it justifies her being attacked because I think that the girl who did it would have done this anywhere. The fact that it happened in or near a changing room is irrelevant.

Everyone has condemned the attack.
Everyone.
Everyone wants to understand what motivated this and how to learn safeguarding lessons. Schools safeguard. They don't chuck both sexes in together and declare attacks shouldn't happen, just because. They separate the sexes, and it reduces the risk. Where sexes are mixed in intimate situations, attacks increase. Primarily by boys, on girls.
And very occasionally, the opposite.

Ensuring proper safeguarding steps are taken to reduce the risk of this happening to another child will only happen if there is complete honesty about this situation.

Yes I would. But again, these are brief reports from a local newspaper. There is no in depth information so I don't see how we can really draw any conclusions from it , other than attack was horrific and disgusting.

The report says that 1 incident happened on the way home from school, so possibly involved students, the other at the park and so possibly no link to school at all. From that info it is really hard to know how much involvement the school needed to have.

I just feel very uncomfortable using the attack of one child in order to discuss wider policies.

Bullying as a whole in schools isn't dealt with well and that's a whole other discussion.

For those who missed it, here is the quote from the second article. I removed the pronouns as they misled regarding the actual sex of the victim.

[Coron] was punched to the ground while walking through the school's changing rooms, on [Coron's] way to a changing room the academy had provided for [Coron]

Both articles state C was on their way to their own changing room.
The second article explains here that the way to this private room was through the (presumably communal, presumably female) changing rooms.

Perhaps a family changing room within the female changing area. Or a modesty cubicle. I've been in several communal women's changing rooms with a separate room within them like this. I can't have been the only woman to do this.

The school leisure facilities are open to the public after school hours. I imagine they provide communal and family/private changing, and its common for the private changing to be within the women's area.

So whilst we don't know what the arrangements were, it's not the least bit difficult to envisage a set up where there is a private cubicle or room within the female change area, because I've seen several similar arrangements.

LittleChristmasMouse might be right, and the newspaper wrong about the location. But there's no evidence for that presumption. It's quite feasible that the location reported is simply correct.

If it was between pupils even out of school I'd certainly hope school would be told. Wouldn't you if your child was bullied?

It's also a failure on the part of the school if they've not done as much as they should to resolve previous issues of bullying

Were the other incidents in school? I thought I read at least 1 happened in the park.

I don't know where it took place.

The 1st report says walking to her own changing room. That's all.

The second refers to "walking through school's changing rooms" which just makes no sense to me.

It seems that posters are trying to show that the individual changing room required Coron to have to walk through the girls changing room (when there is no proof of this). What I can't work out is why?

If as one news story suggests the separate changing space required the transgender student to walk through another changing room to get to it, that's a major safeguarding fail on the part of the school. Not clear from the reporting. It's also a failure on the part of the school if they've not done as much as they should to resolve previous issues of bullying. We were asked for insights, so I don't think it's wrong to look beyond "bullies are bad good thing she's been expelled" to what might have triggered it and how it might have been prevented.

There's also the reporting issue of why this is being reported given so many incidences of school violence aren't, and why it's being badged as anti-transgender bullying if it started before the young person transitioned.

LittleChristmasMouse You appear to be the only person determined to dispute the report that C was walking through the changing rooms when the attack happened.

Unless you know something we don't, most of us are taking at face value that specific piece of information about where the attack happened. If you have knowledge that the attack didn't happen whilst C was walking through the changing rooms, why not contact the newspaper and ask for a correction? I too care about accuracy.

Why are you so invested in disputing the reported location? Does it make a difference to you if the facts are actually exactly as reported?

Why then the posts talking about this attack highlighting complications of rushing through transgender policies in schools?

What relevance does that have to this attack?

No one knows any concrete facts about where this assault happened, and no one here has supported it.

No one has minimised it or attempted to justify it. If that were true it would be victim blaming and MN would remove the post.

For me this story highlights the complications of rushing poorly thought-through transgender policies into schools. Where children are involved any major changes in schools MUST be soundly evidence-based. Where is the study around the integration of transgender pupils? Are there evidence based guidelines and procedures which take into account the needs of all stakeholders?

Whenever the issue of trans girls and women (and it is usually only MtF that is discussed on here) arises the argument is always that posters have no issue with trans people. That everyone is free to dress however they want but the issue is that they shouldn't be allowed to use sex segregated spaces that belong to the sex they identify with. As far as we can tell, Coron was using a 3rd space.

Given that, why was it anyone else's business? The school clearly did consider the non trans students and provided a 3rd space. There is no justification whatsoever for what happened to her so no, I don't think there is a wider discussion to be had here around trans policy in schools within a discussion about this one specific case.

Because that does seem as an attempt to justify or minimise what happened.

For me this story highlights the complications of rushing poorly thought-through transgender policies into schools. Where children are involved any major changes in schools MUST be soundly evidence-based. Where is the study around the integration of transgender pupils? Are there evidence based guidelines and procedures which take into account the needs of all stakeholders?

Absolutely.

Whatever the truth of this story is, we don’t need to continue to try to forensically reconstruct this incident in order to have a discussion of the issues it raises. The nitpicking is starting to feel like deliberate de-railing of a sensible discussion.

Yes.

First of all, Mouse - nowhere at any point in this thread has anyone said anything remotely suggesting ANY child deserves to be stomped on. I think it is indefensible that you should accuse someone of thinking a child deserves to be stamped on because they trans!

If there is no transgender spin on this then why is this story in the headlines? As I keep saying, girls have punch-ups fairly frequently and it doesn’t hit the news. The clear inference in the articles seems to be that the attack was related to Coron's gender presentation. The reader is being encouraged to view the incident in this context. More clicks maybe?

The Mirror report actually said Coron had been bullied over a period of time,including before they 'transitioned'. For all we know these two kids have been arch enemies since primary school and this transgender angle is nothing but a big assumption about the perpetrator’s motivations.

Whatever the truth of this story is, we don’t need to continue to try to forensically reconstruct this incident in order to have a discussion of the issues it raises. The nitpicking is starting to feel like deliberate de-railing of a sensible discussion.

This conversation has broadened into one which looks at potential impacts of transgender policies in schools on the safety and wellbeing of ALL pupils.

For me this story highlights the complications of rushing poorly thought-through transgender policies into schools. Where children are involved any major changes in schools MUST be soundly evidence-based. Where is the study around the integration of transgender pupils? Are there evidence based guidelines and procedures which take into account the needs of all stakeholders?

In terms of the responses of kids, I suspect there will be a range - confusion, feeling invaded, violation of privacy and modesty, contagion, anxiety, feeling compromised at having to pretend to accept an ideology which they do not believe, anger..and hopefully also loving support and acceptance - the list of potential responses goes on.

We see examples of groups going into schools to re-educate kids about how to treat and accomodate ‘transgender’ kids, but has anyone done any research into the impacts of trans ideology on the non-trans majority? This is about educational and psychological theory. It’s about deploying risk assessment, due diligence and research before kids are required to accept huge changes in their school lives.

There are huge opportunities here to develop and deliver legitimate curricula that directly address some of the damaging gender assumptions that put girls (and GNC boys) at risk. That perhaps push young people into thinking transition is the answer.

Surely better education and practices in school can only benefit society as these kids grow up?

This incident with Coron should be a catalyst for deep exploration of the impacts of gender ideology not only on the kids who are on this path, but also the kids around them.

I don’t think many would argue against inclusiveness and acceptance for all but for harmony to be maintained and for the mental health of all students, introducing this sort of radical change should be done very carefully and with the interests of all children paramount.

Safe room
Safe house
Safe passage
Safe harbour

In none of the above is ‘safe’ an absolute.

Also Mouse you wrote

But we have no reason to think that Coron was in the girls space.
If this is true, then your semantic arguments re safe / safer are redundant.

Female spaces aren't safe in my opinion just because men are excluded. They might be safer but they are not safe.
Is correct, but see above listed use of safe.

All children should be safe from harm, always and every where. Sadly we are not even close.

Sorry, I find the reports of a child having had their head stamped on at school abhorrent. If you think that makes me a troll then frankly it says more about you than me.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

I'm still lost as to the point you are making in regards to a child having their head stamped on at school?

But why does Coron being trans have any bearing on the attack?

I don't know. TRAs are saying that. Afaik, we've not been made aware of the motivation.

Are you saying that being trans is a reason to have your head stamped on?

No - as I said, I condemn any violence against Coron - as I would anyone.

I'm talking about the ideology that is telling Coron that Cron can change sex, and be a girl. It is a flawed ideology. Cron is a male. Ideology shouldn't tell Coron that Coron can change sex - Coron can't.

But why does Coron being trans have any bearing on the attack? Are you saying that being trans is a reason to have your head stamped on?

I think any person willing to do that to another human is just looking for an excuse. If it hadn't been because Coron was trans it would be another reason.

LittleChristmasMouse

No, I didn't think you would. Never mind. Keep on reading around the subject.

ZebrasAreBras

I'm not sure that I understand the point you are making?

But we really don't know this to be the case.

Well of course we do.

GNC boys assume they should be girls based on outdated concepts of "gender roles." This is not the case. Humans are male or female biologically - everything else is personality or indoctrination of trans-ideology.

I wholeheartedly condemn any violence against Coron, but the fact remains Coron remains male, as Coron was born. Coron can still have long hair, and wear dresses, but Coron is not female.

The sooner we can dismiss this delusion that human beings can change sex, or need to, the better.