BBC "top story": How I came out as non-binary to my parents

Saying every woman is non-binary is a bit like saying every woman is bisexual.

It really isn't. NB is not fitting into the sex stereotypes for either sex as understood by our culture. That is a fuckton of people.

Who you are sexually attracted to is nothing like that at all.

OldCrone I don't make crass assumptions about people's appearance based on their sexuality but was pointing out that FloralBunting did about non-binary people. I'm not talking about not quite being comfortable with gender boxes but feeling like your body is fundamentally wrong. Saying every woman is non-binary is a bit like saying every woman is bisexual.

Oh, and re: the body insecurities comment, BillyBadBreaks, I wasn't being snarky (hard to tell, I know), it's just the boards have been particularly hostile of late and I am wary because I do often overshare.

I would like to know what a 'binary' woman is expected to look like, to feel, and how she should behave.

I'd like to know this, too.

Do you always make crass assumptions about people's appearance based on their sexuality? You're coming across as very narrow minded. Have you never considered that most people don't fit comfortably in little labelled gender boxes?

To be fair, OldCrone, I think this was in response to my comment about Caitlin dressing a way that is pretty common to.young women who ID as Non binary, which was an idea referenced upthread in conversation with ZenNudist.

At least, I hope so.

I would like to know what a 'binary' woman is expected to look like, to feel, and how she should behave.

Interesting.

Women's spaces are relevant because if you're non-binary you might not feel welcome there. You're only alowed in if you have a vagina, what if you feel like you shouldn't or even don't have one?

Why would you be unwelcome in a space for the female sex if you were, in fact, the female sex? Why would it matter if you felt like you should have a vagina? If you didn't have a vagina, you wouldn't belong in a female sex space, so that would be fairly straightforward.

And yes, many women have significant issues with their bodies to the point of wanting surgery. I'm astonished you appear to think that's unheard of.

I'm going to do you a favour and ignore the remark about 'people of your sexuality' because you clearly equate rejecting stereotypes and fearing ridicule for it with the fear of complete family rejection and possible violence, and I really don't know what to say to that.

Look, no one is saying she can't present to the world as she wishes. But if she's going to appropriate the struggles and language of an actually oppressed minority, and reinforce gender for everyone else while claiming to be apart from it, she's going to get criticized.

Pre-pregnancy I felt wrong about my body in a non-binary kind of way.

How is this different from other body dysmorphic issues?

In that case, I shall assume that you probably are either extremely camp or wearing a flannel shirt and Dr. Martens like most people of your sexuality do.

Do you always make crass assumptions about people's appearance based on their sexuality? You're coming across as very narrow minded. Have you never considered that most people don't fit comfortably in little labelled gender boxes?

ZenNudist: Then I got pregnant and I found new ways to feel wrong about my body sagging, bulging and flagging in ways I never knew it would.

Interesting you should say that. Pre-pregnancy I felt wrong about my body in a non-binary kind of way. Post-pregancy I feel so much happier and more normal about being a woman despite the fact that I now feel bad about fat and stretch-marks. I would, however, take feeling unattractive over feeling non-binary. It's much less uncomfortable. (After I told FloralBunting I wouldn't talk about body insecurities )

Blueblueyellow: hope baba feels better soon, I've one down with a cold too.

Thanks a lot, she's dropped off to sleep now. Hope yours recovers soon too

I would like to know what a 'binary' woman is expected to look like, to feel, and how she should behave.

If there are no boundaries or stereotypes for binary women, surely being non-binary is not a thing either...

I have no intention of divulging my personal insecurities about my body on here

Me neither and yet it seems that that's what someone would have to do to explain non-binary to you. Women's spaces are relevant because if you're non-binary you might not feel welcome there. You're only alowed in if you have a vagina, what if you feel like you shouldn't or even don't have one?

Are you saying there's loads of women on here who who feel terrible about the fact that they have boobs to the point that they would consider having them removed?

while still managing to fit into a very specific look that lots of non binary identified members of your sex maintain

In that case, I shall assume that you probably are either extremely camp or wearing a flannel shirt and Dr. Martens like most people of your sexuality do. As for coming out, this could be something that you've worried about for ages and telling people should help ease the burden. Unfortunately you are probably just opening yourself up to ridicule and nastiness, so yes, it could be a big deal.

Nonbinary gender is an umbrella term to describe any gender identity that does not fit into the gender binary of male and female.

We need a definition of 'gender identity' in order to make sense of that. But it won't make sense even then because male and female are sexes not genders.

the gender binary of male and female

This is the kind of stuff that is the bedrock of the gender identity ideology. No wonder it's hopelessly muddled.

From Dictionary.com
Nonbinary gender is an umbrella term to describe any gender identity that does not fit into the gender binary of male and female.

Hi BillyBad hope baba feels better soon, I've one down with a cold too.
You asked a poster to explain how her body feels wrong, well nearly every woman I know has had some issues with their bodies, we are getting better as we get older and wiser,but this is not at all uncommon.
How wrong does a person's body have to feel before they decide they are non binary?
I'm non binary as far as the definition goes and also gender free. However, so is nearly everyone else on the planet going by the definition.

Yes to most of your post, ZenNudist, and in particular this - I ultimately wonder how normal impulses like not feeling particularly male or female can be given a silly lable and engender a load of hoopla.

Most people posting here reject the strictures of Gender. Non binary is a trendy way of sidestepping some of it while making some pretty big, and often offensive assumptions about everyone else. There's nothing wrong with not being at all happy with specific stereotypes. There's also nothing particularly unusual about it.

I think women might have invented feeling wrong about their bodies. Or maybe that came from living in the patriarchy.

I spent my teen years and early 20s feeling so wrong about my body when I was probably at my physical peak. Maybe im just insecure. Then I got pregnant and I found new ways to feel wrong about my body sagging, bulging and flagging in ways I never knew it would. Now I've got two children and my body bears the marks of that. I can honestly say I don't feel right in my body.

Today I was wearing a dress suit for work because I had a big meeting I just felt uncomfortable in it. Like i physically looked wrong. All the men around we were so at ease in their shirts and trousers. I felt frumpy and a mess.

Possibly to feel right about my body I would need a liposuction, tummy tuck, boob job and butt lift (and maybe a personal stylist!). I'm not rich and I'm very phobic about medical intervention though so I'd never ever go for this even if I had the money. Plus I don't actually want to look like Katie Price. And probably if i did all that id still find fault with myself.

Im still willing to sympathise with the small minority of troubled souls with gender dysphoria btw. I just think maybe we shouldn't be too quick to medicalise and offer surgical intervention for normal human insecurity. And I ultimately wonder how normal impulses like not feeling particularly male or female can be given a silly lable and engender a load of hoopla.

I have no intention of divulging my personal insecurities about my body on here, but I, and a number of others have posted to threads on MN before about such things. It is not remotely uncommon to feel that your body is not quite right. I've referenced on this thread a young person who IDs as Non binary so I'm well aware of the rationale behind the dysphoria described, and its never struck me as any different to the massive body issues I have heard women discussing forever. Except perhaps that it gives a green light to monstrosities like voluntary mastectomies to resolve it.

I'm going to disagree with you about the significance of coming out. It's a huge deal, and nothing at all like saying you feel that you don't fit into the stereotypes for either sex (while still managing to fit into a very specific look that lots of non binary identified members of your sex maintain). When I came out to my mother, she broke an occasional table over me in her anger.

Still not seeing how single sex spaces was relevant to the topic, tbh. They have nothing to do with gender ID.

Imagine feeling like your body was wrong but there may be no "right" for you to aim for. Even if your "right" is achievable by hormones or surgery you face the choice of doing nothing and feeling uncomfortable in your own skin or doing something about it and facing the possibility of being treated like an outcast.

This really doesn't explain what non binary is at all. Many of us have felt our bodies were 'wrong' in some way at some point in our lives. And Caitlin just seems to want to identify as non-binary - I didn't see anything in that piece about body issues.

How is non-binary different from just thinking gender is a load of bollocks and we should all just be free to live our lives as we wish, regardless of our sex?

FloralBunting Please explain how your body feels wrong.

Single sex spaces was just an example to try and help people imagine how it might feel to be non-binary. I guess the big difference is that it affects people so much that they feel the need to talk about it. Similar to people saying that everyone has autistic traits, it might affect you a bit but it affects someone else a lot.

If someone came online worried about going to a baby scan would people say to them "that happens to loads of folk, stop trying to be special"? I imagine (and hope) that they'd realise this person just wanted to speak to their fellow humans about something that was worrying them. I still think the phrase "come out" is fine to use. What does someone being gay actually affect at all? To me absolutely nothing, to them, probably a whole lot.

Well, what gives you the impression that women posting here couldn't imagine feeling their body was wrong?

And what does a non binary identity have to do with the male and female single sex provision we have for specific reasons? What does it actually affect at all? How is it so significantly different from the normal experiences of people every day that you would need to 'come out' to your parents about it?

I was hoping that BillyBadBreaks would come back and enlighten us.

Woah, give me a chance! I've been trying to eat my tea whilst looking after a poorly baby. There is a dysphoria element for a lot of non-binary people. Imagine feeling like your body was wrong but there may be no "right" for you to aim for. Even if your "right" is achievable by hormones or surgery you face the choice of doing nothing and feeling uncomfortable in your own skin or doing something about it and facing the possibility of being treated like an outcast.

For those who don't want men in your women's spaces, what if you felt you didn't fit there yourself but couldn't go to the men's either? Would you not look for a place where you do fit?

Blueskies - testosterone (not too much, just a tweak!) and a double mastectomy, followed in a few years by sterilisation.

www.genderconfirmation.com/introduction-to-top-surgery/

I know a very young woman who identifies as non-binary, has severe co-morbid mental health problems, yet still found a surgeon (privately here in the U.K.) willing to take them off.

Not a form of self - harm at all then.

And I agree with you, btw.