BBC "top story": How I came out as non-binary to my parents

Is it possible that when people "come out" as non binary it is code for "I am gay but knowing how my family would react to THAT I'm just saying this for now to see how that pans out..."

Perhaps we've got to the point where young gay people no longer even identify with the word gay? They have been brought up and surrounded by 'trans' and 'non-binary' as markers of sexual orientation - even though it is now cloaked in the language of gender rather than sex.

It must be very intense for people, especially girls, growing up in these days of social media and instantly available pornography of the violent and disturbing kind. Even being exposed to the milder pornography of many years ago was a very discomforting experience for me as a girl; and I look back and realise how much images i saw shaped my imagination around sex.

Wanting to reject all of that, or certainly not identifying with any of it is perfectly normal, even for girls who are heterosexual in orientation.
today, children and young people are presented with an easy opt out in the form of trans ideology and faddism, and one which elevates them to feeling special and celebrated.

Nobody seems to be able to define non binary including me.

Is it possible that when people "come out" as non binary it is code for "I am gay but knowing how my family would react to THAT I'm just saying this for now to see how that pans out..."

I didn't read the whole article (why would I?) but did the young woman mention which sex she is attracted to sexually?

‘Gender’ is also used inconsistently. More and more it is used in the meaning of ‘gender identity’ and it is of course also misused in place of sex.

We ought all be clear that there are currently three meanings of gender:

1. to mean biological sex. This is immutable and determined at conception.

2. socially constructed gendered demands and expectations. We all live through lifelong gendered socialisation, e.g. the expectation that women will be nice and kind, and put other peoples needs and feelings before our own. Especially mens. Men learn to expect this from women, while they themselves are socialised into having a senseof entitlement. Radical feminists have made it their business to clarify gendered socialisations and fight against them.

3. gender identity. Some people claim to have them, most don’t. Nevertheless, the people who insist they have them, also insist these are innate and everyone has one.

I expect ‘nonbinary’ identified’ youngsters are people who have given up searching for this gender identitythey supposedly have and/or don’t recognise themselves in any stereotyped representations of female and male genders. Plus they get a place under the coveted ‘cool’ and ‘interesting’ trans umbrella.

It seems to me that the goal of AWA’s is to get rid of 1) and 2) above, in the sense that biological sex should be deemed irrelevant, and any idea of gendered socialisations or understanding of gender as socially constructed should be abandoned. Young people who may have grown up believing that sex is irrelevantand that ‘gender’ always refers to ‘gender identity’ are bound to be perturbed to feel they don’t have one, and so the idea of ‘nonbinary’ must seem a godsend.

People don't need to choose a gender. Totally unnecessary, considering bloody "gender" is man-made! Gender is utter bollocks.

Free of gender, personally. And comfortable shoes and boots are non-negotiable.

People have their bodies, and people are either female or they're male.

Wear whatever you desire.

That's why I like genderfree, or gender-free, or gender free, as the case may be. Because it rejects all the gender bollocks.

This article by Rebecca Reilly-Cooper is really, really good.

“I would be happy with this implication, because despite possessing female biology and calling myself a woman, I do not consider myself a two-dimensional gender stereotype. I am not an ideal manifestation of the essence of womanhood, and so I am non-binary. Just like everybody else. However, those who describe themselves as non-binary are unlikely to be satisfied with this conclusion, as their identity as ‘non-binary person’ depends upon the existence of a much larger group of so-called binary ‘cisgender’ people, people who are incapable of being outside the arbitrary masculine/feminine genders dictated by society.

And here we have an irony about some people insisting that they and a handful of their fellow gender revolutionaries are non-binary: in doing so, they create a false binary between those who conform to the gender norms associated with their sex, and those who do not. In reality, everybody is non-binary. We all actively participate in some gender norms, passively acquiesce with others, and positively rail against others still. So to call oneself non-binary is in fact to create a new false binary. It also often seems to involve, at least implicitly, placing oneself on the more complex and interesting side of that binary, enabling the non-binary person to claim to be both misunderstood and politically oppressed by the binary cisgender people.”

aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

Sometimes I feel bad that my boobs aren't good enough. Sometimes I feel bad that I have them at all.

It really does sound as if you are struggling with gendered expectations and stereotypes. Your breasts have become such a site of conflict and trauma - because of their social significance.

Are you saying there's loads of women on here who who feel terrible about the fact that they have boobs to the point that they would consider having them removed?

I think at certain points in their adolescence then most women have probably felt alienated from their bodies, yes!. With all that their developing womanly body implies. But in times gone by there wasn't a huge industry and social media presence around the very real possibility that you might actually attempt to subvert or attempt to change your sex. You just had to adjust and get on with it.

Mind/body integration has always been the goal of most psychotherapies. And of course here 'body' also carries heavy social meaning - and that is the main problem. The feelings and expectations around gendered social stereotypes.

Non-binary are the epitome of gender identity ideology.

In a world with so much information, so much stimulus, when you feel unimportant and insignificant, people used to look to God to give life meaning. Now when everything is too much, you can just 'come out' as being different, special, not part of this boring binary that you can't take anymore.

For those who don't want men in your women's spaces, what if you felt you didn't fit there yourself but couldn't go to the men's either? Would you not look for a place where you do fit?

Feelings of not fitting or belonging are a normal right of adolescent passage. The problem is these days there is a whole cornucopia of trans ideology, surgical 'solutions' and big pharma waiting in the wings to 'guide' you.

'Crazy Like Us' - an interesting and revealing book about the exportation of various psychological maladies from the U.S to the rest of the world. This recent trans thing is largely a fad; a contemporary way to deal with the feelings you describe.

Does Caitlin feel non-binary when they has their period? (has? have? I need help here)

Or have I just said something unbelievably crass. It’s hard to know.

if it means you wish to harm your body with medical and surgical intervention, it really means you have some deep seated issues to explore through some kind of counselling.

Hating a part of your body is not a healthy state of mind. If someone is going to make major and irreversible changes to their body because of body hatred, the reasons for that hatred really need to be explored with counselling. But it seems as though as soon as the magic 'gender' word is uttered, the counselling becomes 'conversion therapy', and the medical and surgical changes to the body become essential requirements to become one's true self. Insane.

FwIW, and in the spirit of kindness, as you did share something personal about your physical insecurities, I hated my vulva from about the age of 9 up. I wished it wasn't there, and would pretend that was the case when I pretended to be a boy in the park. I could barely look at myself when i went to the loo or had a wash.

And in my case, it was because I was sexually abused as a child by a boy a little older, and much bigger than me. I suspect that for a lot of young women who identify out of being women these days, there will be a similar motivation, sadly.

A friends 14 year old 'came out' as non-binary a few weeks back. Friends response was to ask basically, how does non-binary differ from personality. Which everyone has. Child thought for a second, then decided its not different at all.

A few years ago they would just have been an Emo or a Goth.

I know you're off, BillyBad, but I think thats a fair question to ponder there - its often pointed out that you dont need to be dysphoric to be trans, so I would think it unlikely that you do to be NB, which as I understand it is a subset of trans.

Disliking your body isn't the same as feeling unattractive, I agree. But it doesn't change your sex designation, it doesn't make you a separate class of person, and if it means you wish to harm your body with medical and surgical intervention, it really means you have some deep seated issues to explore through some kind of counselling.

*Dear god.

My 16yo dd came out to us as non-binary a few months ago.

That's OK. We love you any way you are.
Yes, we'll try to use the name you prefer, but we'll probably slip up from time to time.
No, I won't use those pronouns, because pronouns relate to biological sex and not self-perception.
I love you.

Then for a couple of months we used the name she wanted and avoided saying girl, daughter, sister, etc - with occasional slip-ups, and only when taking directly to her.

And life goes on the way it was.*

Except now she probably expects that the world will revolve around validating her feelings about herself and her 'identity'. Isn't that just nurturing a narcissistic sense of self, though?

If she had just come out as a lesbian that would be far easier and more simple, and she could just carry on being your daughter and nobody would have to pussyfoot around pronouns.

Gender identity seems to have become a substitute for feelings around sexuality and sexual orientation - but at the cost of natal women's boundaries and spaces.

Are there male non-binaries? Do they modify their bodies?

Jess was a 'non-binary trans-woman' and that seemed to involve unpleasant coloured lipstick. Nothing modified, according to the photo blog.

Billy Does a non binary person have to be dysphoric?

I don't understand what non-binary means and none of the explanations here make sense to me.

It sounds to me as if she has just come out as gay, but these days it somehow seems easier, trendier and more palatable to call yourself trans or non-binary. The difference, and the problem, is though, that being gay doesn't catapult you towards a path of potential medical intervention and utter confusion.

Saying every woman is non-binary is a bit like saying every woman is bisexual.

Some people do believe that everyone is bisexual, so that might be a valid opinion to hold.

I had assumed, like many others here, that non-binary people just didn't like the stereotypes, not that they felt they needed to modify their bodies. Is non-binary, which includes body modifications only a female thing? Are there male non-binaries? Do they modify their bodies?

Thanks FloralBunting it was in reference to your non-binary dress sense comment. I feel similar to you about sharing insecurities in this thread too.

But for other people talking about body issues, I mean feelings specific to sex characteristics rather than attractiveness. Sometimes I feel bad that my boobs aren't good enough. Sometimes I feel bad that I have them at all. The second feeling is worse (for me, obviously I don't know how bad you lot feel about your bodies). It's a different kind of feeling. But I have to go to bed now!