BBC "top story": How I came out as non-binary to my parents

Hey FloralBunting, since I said I'd leave them to it in that "Peak Trans" thread I'll mention this here, I wasn't asking you to be nice. That only came up because OP asked why I thought we disagreed (they mentioned "can’t we just be kind" not being a good idea - that's an area we disagreed on so I mentioned it).

That's interesting and I can identify with a lot of it. Have you (or SomeDyke or anyone else) ever seen a bloke and thought "that's how I want to look physically" then remembered that you're a woman and felt sad that you'll never be able to be who you really are? Then on another day felt like you actually have a male body and everyone can tell but you wish they thought you were female?

Not quite...but I have looked at very attractive men and thought,"if I was a guy I'd fancy you" . I can imagine being a gay male.

How is any one's life changed by announcing they are NB?
It's not but perhaps the non-binary person just want's to share something with you that they find important. Or they hope you will use a different name or pronouns to help them feel better.

Clearly coming out as gay... that person's life and their interaction with friends and family is going to be different
I'm in a happy monogomous relationship, why would finding out someone was gay mean I was going to interact with them any differently?

The difficulty I have with the concept of "coming out as non-binary" is - well so what? What happens? What changes?

Clearly coming out as gay, lesbian or trans is an announcement that going forward that person's life and their interaction with friends and family is going to be different. Not different in a bad way but different.

How is any one's life changed by announcing they are NB?

That makes perfect sense ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASavings and FloralBunting! I do try to give the benefit of the doubt and remember that I don't know how that person is really feeling, which judging by your posts you seem to be doing too.

I love the idea of gender-free! I always considered gender to be a social construct where we're all expected to behave in accordance with stereotypes. But that's not mutually exclusive to people feeling that their body is or should be a different sex.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD: Its quite sweet. Back in the day, a child coming out (and I mean proper coming out) and was the risk that there would be tears, possibly anger and rejection. If DS came out as special snowflake non-binary pup-boy I would probably pee myself laughing. Then remind him of when he was at nursery and used to pretend to be a dog, then a cat. Awww bless the weans.
And isn't your DS lucky that instead of anger and rejection they would get belittling and rejection instead?

There's a man at my husbands work who sometimes comes to work dressed as a man with a man's name and called 'he'. Sometimes he comes to work dressed as a woman with make-up, a female name and called 'she'. Now I was wondering the other day, if clothes were unisex (not as daft as it sounds - the local school has everyone wearing identical hoodies and girls can wear trousers) and given that not all women wear make-up and some men do, in that world how would this individual signal that today was a 'woman day' or a 'man day'? They are the same person with the same personality and abilities. And in that world what would 'being a woman' if you have a male body mean? Makes clear to me that this is all based on stereotypes and if you get rid of those being trans doesn't mean anything.

Its quite sweet. Back in the day, a child coming out (and I mean proper coming out) and was the risk that there would be tears, possibly anger and rejection.

If DS came out as special snowflake non-binary pup-boy I would probably pee myself laughing. Then remind him of when he was at nursery and used to pretend to be a dog, then a cat.

Awww bless the weans.

ByGrabtharsHammarWhatASavings I get where you're coming from. I've been trying my best to describe it but unfortunately I have trouble understanding my own feelings, never mind expressing them well to others! Especially when it's things that sound stupid or embarrassing. There's so many different people all using non-binary for different reasons and perhaps with different issues mixed in, I don't know myself if it's a real thing or just a group of people with similar "symptoms". You're not coming across as an areshole though

Caitlin looks like a very attractive, deliberately androgynous young woman to me.
Compared to some of the dykes I used to know, they aren't that androgynous at all (and aren't trying that hard!). Really!

I'll be honest, I don't think that anyone on this earth has felt something no one else has ever felt about themselves. And it's obviously fine to talk about and investigate those things.

Most posters on FWR understand the desire to demolish Gender. It's a big part of feminist thinking. To go back to Ash Hardell, they did a video about them going to their employers and getting an agreement that they could wear a different uniform to the other female employees, due to their being Non Binary. The female uniform didn't feel 'right' or comfortable to Ash.

So Ash sorted Ash out. I don't even know if Ash ever did start wearing the other uniform, but Ash got a big kick out of having their concerns heard and an agreement reached, and that was that.

Ash didn't break the chains of Gender with their agreement. Ash set up a privilege for Ash and the NB ID was the lever used.

If you want to demolish Gender, and you call yourself a feminist, you do things which benefit other women stuck in the Gender prison, not just you.

What Caitlin has done with her podcast and her article that focuses on 'coming out' solely as a way to affirm feelings, not as something potentially disadvantageous or even dangerous as is it for gay and lesbian people, is set up an 'opt out', which is why it's put people's backs up so much.

Caitlin isn't breaking the binary, Caitlin is accepting the binary but insisting Caitlin is one of the people who don't have to follow the rules.

Does any of that help explain why those here who aren't impressed at all have been negative about it? I sense you read it as a personalized attack, but I hope I've clarified it a little.

Well said OP, I can completely 'identify' with your statement

I have a personality and a moral compass and thoughts and feelings as a person. I don't have a gender identity.

I'm enjoying posts in another FWR thread about being #genderfree which I am now (whilst remaining biologically female). I didn't have a word for it before but if we're adding new words and phrases to this like non-binary etc then I don't see why we can't use gender free if we are free of genders.

Caitlin looks like a very attractive, deliberately androgynous young woman to me. I hope she doesn’t take testosterone, or her beautiful hair will fall out.

Someone on another thread suggested we were on our way to a Hunger Games Capitol type fascination with appearance. Then I saw the picture on the article.

stalls everyone at the "I feel bad, I want to feel better" stage.
That's a stage I seem to get stalled at whatever the problem is! Although I don't like anyone having to feel bad it is nice to know that other people feel similar . That's why I like the term non-binary, it helps me feel like I belong somewhere.

For me it was puzzling that people fancied anyone so I just pretended to fancy the same boys as my friends. By the time I did start being attracted to men and women I was already "straight" so I just went with it. Since I've never been asked out by a woman (and am too cowardly to do any asking myself) it seemed pointless to make some big announcement about being bisexual.

Yes, I've felt all those conflicted feelings. Its extremely complicated psychologically, because we are talking about the far reaching effects of a misogynistic culture, and burgeoning sexuality (I know for me, liking girls was very confusing in a world that was very heterosexual, and I did think for a time that I might be some kind of internal boy because only boys wanted to kiss girls. We hardly ever properly examine this stuff, and I think one of the unhelpful things about the NB/Trans thinking is that it does stop that honest, deep enquiry into what's going on and just stalls everyone at the "I feel bad, I want to feel better" stage.

Justhadathought: I was 12 years old...
That's interesting and I can identify with a lot of it. Have you (or SomeDyke or anyone else) ever seen a bloke and thought "that's how I want to look physically" then remembered that you're a woman and felt sad that you'll never be able to be who you really are? Then on another day felt like you actually have a male body and everyone can tell but you wish they thought you were female?

Whereas I would object to 'being treated as a boy' as being so different from 'being treated as a girl' in the first place. You might like that ambiguity

Well, at 12 years of age it was certainly interesting to realise and feel how I was being perceived and responded to differently as a 'boy'. Not saying it is right for people to respond differently, but they do tend to.

To me, personally I feel slightly as if 'being (mistaken for) a lesbian' is being slightly fetishised.

I do see what you mean...I guess, for me, it has been about exploring and playing around with gendered expectations - and it always was.
So very much with how I might be perceived or received by others. So, yes, a kind of performance of gender in a way.

Have you seen 10 years younger? Those people get carved up and sewn back together again and end up crying with gratitude

A shame really as it’s usually the changes to hair style and the repairs to neglected teeth which have the most effect overall ... things which don’t require major surgery.

I'm heterosexual and 'full bodied' but quite like the feeling that people might think I'm a lesbian. I don't want to conform in certain ways. I just want to be myself....

To me, personally I feel slightly as if 'being (mistaken for) a lesbian' is being slightly fetishised. Just wanting to 'be yourself' isn't quite the case if others are mistaking you to be something you are not, and that feels nice to you. I'm trying to draw distinction here between butch lesbians such as myself who, because they don't 'do' femininity, frequently get mistaken for men. But being mistaken for men isn't the point, or isn't that 'nice', it's at best amusing, and you then have to decide if being mistaken is worse that wearing something else to try and not be.

and slipped into what it felt like to be perceived and treated, even subliminally, by others as a boy. Whereas I would object to 'being treated as a boy' as being so different from 'being treated as a girl' in the first place. You might like that ambiguity, but doesn't change the fact that the reality isn't. And you can mess with people's heads as regards their perceptions of you and their assumptions about your sex, without claiming that you are somehow not that sex. This view of social gender and presentation is just that, social and presentation, it the trying to link it somehow to who you 'really' are which is the bit that is broken as far as I'm concerned (or should be broken). It's the difference between saying 'I'm female, but my role model is John Wayne (so I like tall horses)', or 'my role model is John Wayne, so I must not exactly be a woman..........'.

Or perhaps I should go for Monique Wittig and her claim that lesbians weren't women (but then I never quite understood french feminist theory in the first place!).

I was 12 years old in 1977, and had my hair cut short for my birthday. It felt liberating. And since then I returned to short hair at many times during my life when i wanted to break free of certain conditions in my life. I now have short hair all of the time, and feel most myself with it short.

Around the time I'd just had my hair cut short, I was on holiday with my parents in Wales . It was my practice, and still is, to roam around on my own, observing and exploring my environment and my neighbourhood. I was over near a small children's fun fair on the promenade when someone referred to me as " that boy over there"....

Initially, for about half a second I was offended and embarrassed, until i then realises that i actually liked this confusion about my sex, and slipped into what it felt like to be perceived and treated, even subliminally, by others as a boy. Ever since then, I've always liked that ambiguity. I'm heterosexual and 'full bodied' but quite like the feeling that people might think I'm a lesbian. I don't want to conform in certain ways. I just want to be myself and to express myself in ways that feel comfortable or right for me.

Sometimes I consciously withdraw my identity and feelings of self from my body altogether. It's tiring to have to be in role or 'in gender' all of the time. We do it without even realising we are.