transgender supportive, TRA unsupportive

it's one post. You're going to disengage because of one post?

No, you will note I said that post epitomises a certain tone on the Feminist board. As demonstrated by another poster instantly jumping in to defend it. It is this style of debate I find so detrimental to any sort of discussion that, like many I suspect, I just decide I really can't be bothered even going there.

Well that is your decision to make.

Can't be bothered engaging to protect women and girls because one poster was sarcastic to an OP.

Interesting.

it's one post. You're going to disengage because of one post?

I am not upset, I just can't be bothered engaging with such strident nonsense. It is not 'just sarcasm' it is putting words in the mouth of the OP and me that we never said in order to be pointlessly nasty. I don't see any way forward for discussion with those sort of posts being defended.

I have to say, posts like this pretty much epitomise why I largely can't be bothered with the Feminism board

It's just sarcasm. Women can be sarcastic too.

Jesus, girls are getting theirs breasts removed and the skin around their forearms taken off and reshaped into pahlluses, and it is sarcasm that upsets you?

living their life as a woman

What does this mean?

You're right, OP, you are the only feminist on here who supports lovely transgender women just trying to live their lives without being attacked by horrible ugly lesbians and everyone else on here is a literal NAZI who wants trans people to die screaming and there is plenty of evidence of that in this site only why should I look it up for you do your own emotional labour I'm not here to school you basic human rights are not up for debate and anyway you're lovely and everyone else isn't.

You're probably prettier too

I have to say, posts like this pretty much epitomise why I largely can't be bothered with the Feminism board.

When people accuse women us of being anti-trans, I just give them examples of women working for female-to-male transmen, when everyone else looks the other way and ignores their needs.

For instance...... The government department of Women & Equalities proudly announced a health initiative for LBGT women, specifically mentioning lesbians and transwomen.

It was women who pointed out that, yet again, the female sex was last in the queue. They pointed out that it was more important to the government to validate MTfs than deal with the very real and present health challenges facing transmen.

The LGBT health organisations wouldn't dream of standing up for transmen, if it meant that transwomen's feelings were hurt. In fact, they were silent. They consistently show that they don't care about the female sex. Women stand up for FtMs all the time.

Another example would be the groundswell of concern about teenage transmen. It was places like Mumsnet that cared while the trans lobby used girls on the autism spectrum to further the cause for self i/d. History will judge whether the trans lobby acted in the intrests of teenage transmen. Personally, I think the women's movement may have stopped a catastrophe in the making.

When people accuse feminists/mumsnet/women of being anti-trans, we just point to a record of including transmen in our feminism. We don't care about your gender. It is meaningless to women. Transmen are adult human females, transwomen are not.

You’re not in the minority, most people feel the same way and if you do read the threads here, you’ll see support for people like Miranda Yardley, Debbie Hayton and others. However it is not the job of feminists to advocate and campaign for other groups, feminism centres women. So you will see a lot of threads on the problematic TRA’s, because they threaten women’s existing rights.

Transwomen post on here and there's a lot of support for transwomen speaking out against TRAs.

The fact that TRAs call these people TRUSCUM should be a massive red flag for anyone who cares to notice.

The problem as I see it, OP, is that you can't just treat someone as the opposite sex for all purposes and ignore the effects on others.

I have an autistic son, and the watchword throughout school has been reasonable adjustment to enable him to take part in activities, as they would for children with other disabilities or differences.

Many women need single-sex facilities. My son needs a quiet, dimly lit space to destress. Putting males into female facilities is like whacking up the lights and sounds in my son's quiet room, and then telling him not to be so prejudiced against deaf and visually impaired children.

I know a lovely transgender woman who I consider to be family and she is just getting on with her life with the minimum of fuss. I have never seen anyone attack what could be called old style trans. Transwomen post on here and there's a lot of support for transwomen speaking out against TRAs. There are 3 things I'm critical of - the attack on women's rights to single sex spaces, the transing of children and the ideology which believes humans can change sex.
The dilemma is how to protect your friend while stopping the aggressive behaviour and tactics of the TRAs. At the moment I can't see how defeating the trans lobby is not the priority for everyone including you friend.

... and any grifter using a 'trans' identity to get a pass for their activities.

Having now read quite a few threads at KF, I feel it's it fair to mention that a good many of the responses there are sympathetic to old school transsexuals- protective even- but yes, they're open about disdain for AGPs and trenders.

Good question littlbrowndog

What’s all this supporting stuff that feminists are meant to do

Transgender people have got legal rights same as everybody else

What’s this supporting then ?

''Live as a woman'' is fine and noble until you get to the reality of why women have single sex spaces and services such as psychiatric wards and prisons.

Be nice all you like, just don't be fooled into handing over the sexed based rights that less well off women than you depend upon.

I've known trans people since the 80s in one form or other (socially or through work or as my student) And always supported their right to express themselves as they wish. It really is nobody's business.

However no trans woman can live as a woman. They do not have the same common ground as women, they are not subject to the same discrimination, health issues, job prospects or reduction in them, they don't take an average 20% pay cut, they will not have wrecked bodies from childbirth, brittle bones from an early menopause, reduction in pension if they took time away from work to bring up a family etc etc etc.

What they are doing is living as trans women, and that is fine, but different. It is not mean to point out they they do not need smear tests but will need prostate cancer checks.

So I cannot parrot the mantra TWAW as it is not true.

And that is before we get to the authorities putting women and girls at greater risks just to satisfy a vocal minority of activists.

If people stop pushing back on this just so they appear 'not mean', women and girls will lose all the rights they have spent 100 years trying to get enshrined in law. It is unlikely to really affect me, but I can extrapolate and see how it can affect other more vulnerable people. If you think that is being mean then that is your right but it affects every female on the planet and my support is for them, not someone who had all the privileges of being male before they decided to 'live as a woman'.

Being called 'anti - trans' is a real silencer. But if you really want to see transphobia in action go and have a look below the line on the Telegraph, Pistonheads, Kiwi Farms and a host of other online places. Yet men people make a beeline for this board and try to police the spoken word of women. Funny that.

Many of us have the most liberal credentials you'll find with proven track records of fighting all types of discrimination. Trans people have (and must continue to have) all the democratic rights of the rest of society. The problem is when some trans individuals / organisations try to remove the rights of others, especially women and target / gaslight children. Then we speak out.

I'm not supportive of any male who uses women's spaces.

I'm not supportive of anyone who encourages the transing of children.

Otherwise, why wouldn't I be supportive of anyone who just wants to live happily and safely?

Just think, if we didn't have to waste time arguing that biological men are different from biological women and one does not become the other we could have done so much work on how to support trans people as they are. How to develop a toolbox with a range of researched methods to help people with GD and those struggling with their bodies

Who is we though? I don't think it's the job of women and specifically feminist women to fix men that have issues with their gender.

I don't wish harm or trans people and of course they should have the same rights as anyone else but I'm not going to pretend that the notion of being a women reduced to outward gender stereotypes isn't harmful to females and that's regardless of whether an individual is a vocal TRA or not.

The entire ideology is damaging to women and girls (and males in some cases) and that doesn't cease to be the case just because some individuals are nice people otherwise.

no I am not going to provide quotes - look for yourself!

This smearing style of posting is really very dishonest.

You may be in the minority's simply due to the number of trans people there are in the UK, but you are not in the minority's in MN when it comes to being supportive of trans people. The the trans ideology that most of us have the problem with. For me it's #nodebate that, amounts other things, trans peaked me.

Please don't mistake one for the other, I feel deeply for the number of trans people living peacefully for decades being completely traumatised and having their lives disrupted by this new language and entitled demands being made that will cause nothing but distress and bring unwanted attention to them.

Please look deeper into what it is that most of us actually say and the reasons why.

My impression has always been that the posters on here are supportive of trans people - just not supportive of the TRA ideology which seeks to take away the rights of women and girls, and, as intrinsic part of that, to deny basic biology.
I think the natural “allies” of trans people are often women, and often feminists. In life I have come up against genuine transphobia where people express a disgust or mockery of trans people. I’ve always challenged that. That is why it is such a shame that TRAs are creating conflict - placing all reasonable people, including previous “allies” (I’ve come to hate that word) on a “side” that can be portrayed inaccurately, or for political aims, as “transphobic” - against trans people. It does trans people a disservice.

I also do think your post,OP, is disingenuous. I came to this page thinking why on earth are people so anti- trans. Then I started reading. It’s clear that “feminist chat” is not anti trans. You need to separate criticism of TRA ideology from genuine transphobia. I get really angry at being accused of being of “transphobe”, “anti trans” or “terf”.