transgender supportive, TRA unsupportive

Nauticant.
Thank you. The gaming analogy is always in my head when I think about this, and I have to think abut it because I have a gendercurious troubled teen who I don’t want to go to the next level. I think the whole trans and children thing is essentially unconnected to the real world.

It's almost like a culture of gaming the system has arisen from a gaming culture.

The trans boards are full of advice on how to beat the gatekeepers and scripts of what to say so you can get your prescription

The whole current movement is hinged on how to "beat the system" at every level - a time-tested, evidence-based and experience-proven multi layer system of gatekeeping, safeguarding, double checking and care based on the principles of do no harm and personal safety and wellbeing etc. As society, we are morally and legally obligated to protect vulnerable members (children being one of the largest groups), but this is all about circumventing that.

The fact that these societal obligations are considered "undesirable" by those pushing the trans agenda should give anyone pause for thought as to why.

Barracker I totally agree with your reservations about surgery.

There is no difference in mental health outcomes post op. The suicide rate does not change, they do not suddenly find peace with thier body, the perfect partner, the perfect job, endless happiness now that they have been surgically altered to match their dreams.

People have multiple ops because the aesthetic is not exactly what they envisaged, they've had a long time to dream up their new genitalia and it's quite difficult to create a neo-vagina or a penis from an arm flap. The reality is always going to be unsatisfactory compared to their hopes.

30% of people are left with peeing difficulties from surgery. THat's really, really poor.

Neo-vaginas are made from scrotal skin and can regrow public hair. They smell and they have to be looked after very carefully in order to keep them open. Dilating is time consuming and painful.

All treatment options seem to have poor outcomes - the hormones that people buy online give them liver failure. FTMs get horrendous vaginal atrophy and we're waiting to see what putting a teenager into menopause will do for their cardiac and bone health. It's not good medicine.

The trans boards are full of advice on how to beat the gatekeepers and scripts of what to say so you can get your prescription. It's quite eye opening.

I'd really like to see a more critical thinking approach to treatment for this group. The parallel with how we treat anorexia or other body dysmorphia is worth reflecting on, I reckon.

These people deserve better from their care. First, do no harm.

I keep coming back to the analogy with freedom of religious belief.

I write "Reverend Bloggs" on my friend's Christmas cards, even though I don't believe there's any god by whom she's revered (she is of course revered by me as a friend, but then so are my friends who aren't ministers!) But that doesn't mean that I can't say "I personally don't believe, on a philosophical level, that there is a god", and even say it to her face (in fact, we do have conversations about the problem of evil, and problem of suffering, where me being able to say this is an integral part of the debate).

Likewise, I'd call a transwoman I knew "she" - but I would still want to reserve the right (self-censoring here because of MN's terms and conditions) to discuss the general philosophical, scientific and political principle that trans people remain biologically speaking members of their birth sex, and that accepting/wanting to retain the right not to accept them into the social category associated with the opposite birth sex has political implications - specifically when it comes to single sex spaces segregated for dignity, safety or fairness, or the collation of accurate statistics, whether of epidemiological risk for illness, or offending statistics.

Biological sex matters, and it has political implications (not because "essentialism" - the stupidly woke come back, but because throughout history our biology has been weaponised against us, and to tackle oppression you have to be able to name and talk about its root causes).

As a woman who has had to fight tooth and nail through the education system and into employment to get into a male-dominated field, who has had to bring a court case for equal pay, who spent the first 10 years of her adult life in a society where rape within marriage was still legal - I need to be able to talk about my biological category and its existence in order to fight for my rights. Language matters.

But each time someone says how unnecessary it is to use bluntness it becomes much harder for someone else to call any man a man if he forbids it.

Everyone should be able to call any man a man, without this being condemnable.

This is at the heart of it.

I just think it’s a small linguistic concession we can make that doesn’t really hurt

No. It isn't a small concession. It does really hurt.

Can I point out there, echobelly, that even your thoughtful and considerately worded post, would be enough to have you hung from the rafters as a raging, hateful, bigoted transphobe who would indeed be one of those people McKinnon et al wishes to "die in a grease fire".

There is no "reasonable" POV any more. It is either 100% capitulation or NOTHING.

(As indeed would any trans people you know unless they also agree fully and entirely with the AWA position)

Hadn't heard about AWA before - sounds like a useful way of being clear one is not against trans rights, I've always been a bit uneasy about the perjorative use of TRAs, as obviously it's generally fine for people to be trans rights activitists

As for views of people on these boards - I'm sure no one here suddenly started thinking 'Urgh, trans people are gross and yucky weirdos' after reading a bit about some of the issues. My mind has been shifted to a more critical position not through developing some hatred of trans people (I have trans friends and family), but through listening to other women and realising that even if I feel OK about some access issues, there are other women with sound, non-bigoted reasons why 'trans women are women' is a problem.

At the same time, I get why it must be very hard, very heartbreaking for trans women after all they go through to hear people saying 'Sorry, I can't say you are woman' and I honestly can't say I know what the answer is. But I also do understand that it's a bit of a slap in the face for women to hear than they should open up their spaces, rather than men changing their attitudes and fear of the feminine and to give in a bit rather than women having to do it. If trans women can't have 'the nice things' of being a woman, sadly it's because of the patriarchy and the harm it causes to women growing up in it and living in it, not women not being nice enough to trans women.

I’m just going to leave this here... transpecies (couldn’t do a link but a screenshot is just as good)

Barracker 👏

I nodded agreement with EluphNaugeMeop's excellent post.
I just wanted to say something about this:
There is no need to describe a transwoman as a man though

If you're having tea and gingernuts with them I'd agree. No need.

But when literally billions of women worldwide are being legally corralled into identity groups and out of sex-based rights, and the key weapon for doing this is the redefinition and obfuscation of language, it has never been more important to be unequivocally clear about terms. At a public level of dialogue we must support others in speaking the truth, even if we feel unable or unwilling to speak it ourselves.

I cannot say the truth on this forum, one of the bravest and most resilient public forums left in existence. All I can say is that I fundamentally disagree about whether there is no need to describe a transwoman as either a transwoman or a man. It has never been more urgent to be able to say an unpalatable truth, or at the very least, not make it harder for others to say what we ourselves cannot or will not.

Truly, hurting the feelings of any man has to be inconsequential when measured against the absolute shackles that linguistic concessions are putting on women's abilities to distinguish ourselves.

I've never demanded another woman call transwomen men, and I never would.

But the truth is becoming unsayable without compelled euphemisms, and none of us should contribute to making the truth unsayable for others.

The bravest women are the ones being the most truthful. I don't count myself in their number. I make concessions on Mumsnet not to spare the feelings of male people who want to blur linguistic distinctions, but because I am forced to in order to remain. But each time someone says how unnecessary it is to use bluntness it becomes much harder for someone else to call any man a man if he forbids it.

Everyone should be able to call any man a man, without this being condemnable.

Please, please allow room for the consideration of this.

Having moved from Transgender to TRA I may now move to AWA... on the basis that my langage is changing as my opinions and understanding evolves.

Thanks Floral

SignMeUp, a word or two on the use of AWA as opposed to TRA - I use Anti Woman Activist because of what we've been talking about on this thread - my focus is not on trans anything, the only thing that interests me is when certain people push for things which harm women and girls. That 'Trans' is the currently fashionable means by which to do this is just scenery, really. It's the anti-woman focus that is the issue, quite apart from the fact that Trans-rights activists are not pushing for rights but privileges over and above other groups.

Hope that explains the use

Thanks Repeal

Wow my typos seem worse than ever, think I may need a new keyboard as a lot of letters seem to randomly not register..

Fairly sure this is the position of most posters on here. I know its mine.

Mind, I would extend TRA to include TRA 'types', you know those 'I am nw a lesbian, worship my female penis or you are a bigot' types? And the usual MRAs ho latch ono this. TRAs are the main issue, the blatant misogyny and homophobia is just shocking. However, this uns way deeper than a few hundred dedicated 'activists'. I would actually probably wager that at least half of those currently IDing as 'trans' are not actually transsexual. And IMO, 'transgender' is a load of bollocks. Its all about stereotypes and random 'feelings'. Transsexualism is about body dysphoria, which is very real and an awful condition to live with. But of course, 'saying trans people have dysphoria is transphobic!!!' these days.

The Hayden screenshot, purposely twisting the thread about narcisists..business as usual.

The small linguistic concession of calling men "she" or "women" is incredibly oppressive. Given that we're actually punished if we don't toe the line e.g. job loss, social ostracism, loss of a public voice on the internet, it's clearly not small at all. It's a requirement for women to deny reality and erase ourselves. That's why I'm wondering about your relative's colleagues OP, would you support them if they used the correct terminology about your relative ('male", "man", "he")? I'm even wondering if this post will be deleted by Mumsnet because in naming reality I haven't followed the new social rules that women were never consulted on.

I just wanted to ask something respectfully OP

The family member of mine uses, where possible, the toilet that is unisex. I've never seen them use the female toilets

Firstly it's grest that your family member has applied the sort of tacit agreement that transwomen have had with women regarding public toilets. Transwomen and Transmen are nothing new, they have been around for years and the tacit agreement has been abused over the years I'm sure but not to the degree we have now.

What I wanted to ask was if your family member was to commit a crime and go to prison should they go to a male or female prison?

Or if they were, god forbid, needing medical treatment requiring a stay in hospital, should they be on a men's or women's ward? The NHS has recently admitted that they treat the condition and the person according to their gender.

Whilst I would want your family member to be treated with respect and humanity it's important that we recognise that if, by doing so, we are in direct conflict of doing the same for women we should, at the very least have a discussion about it.

This is why I have such an issue with the trans ideology #nodebate as it removes women's rights and voices. It's 2019, we can do better.

AWA = anti woman activists

I’m critical of the concept of gender but wouldn’t want to associate myself with Gender Critical movement because of some of the vitriol

Again, the new I'm not racist but....

Again, the giveaway word vitriol.

It's not hard to find a new word that doesn't make a post flash like a belisha beacon!

Excuse me, what is AWA?

A teeny weeny linguistic concession to include biological males as women?
How about we make a little concession on behalf of men; biological males can dress however they want and still be included as men.Ta da!!
Actually they did that in the 70s and 80s,so there’s no need to suggest we eradicate the meaning of the word woman. My compassion is for the women and girls who will be damaged if the current trans ideology persists.

Legal definitions are too important to be based on compassion or politeness.

Gender means very little to be honest. It’s like saying someone has a ‘yellow soul’ or as relevant in general life as someone not liking orange juice.

I don’t like bullies and I don’t like liars. Women’s rights have been hard fought (and we aren’t there yet) yet they seem to be shrinking and not because of a genuine social reason. It’s become a trend and is very damaging to women and it really shows how little (generally) men really think of is.

I treat people as I find them.