If everyone was gender-non-conforming...

It slows down casual social interactions, adds confusion at the start of meeting someone, and creates awkwardness. It's useful to know someone's sex automatically

I don’t wear make up, have short hair, short nails, no jewellery, nearly always wear work trousers or jeans with boots and a t-shirt.

Not once has anyone been “confused” about my gender on meeting me. Nobody has ever had to clarify, no one has ever asked me my pronouns, they have automatically used female.

Apart from the sexist arseholes who assume I am male because I am “Dr Really”, and are confused when a woman turns up.

Which makes me think- i could say i am GNC because i don’t subscribe to the social expectation of “feminine”. But on the other hand I don’t think I am GNC because i dress for practicality and comfort- i don’t think I wear “mens clothes” or clothes that would be rejected by any other woman.

Has anyone read a book by Josephine Tey called To Love and be Wise? Available on Kindle. Nice and short and interesting in this context.

Yes, gendered presentation is how society creates that visual shorthand that tries to smooth interactions - the skirted figure on a female toilet etc.

But the incongruence of a person who at first glance is dressed like the Queen, for example, but has a deeper voice, large skeleton, strong jawline etc. than a typical woman, will cause a human to do a double take precisely because those physical characteristics are so very hard to disguise even with our strong social conditioning.

Removing the gendered presentation won't do anything to remove the physical characteristics. So, while I am totally on board with the aim of destroying the restrictions of Gender, it is truly unrelated to the realities of sex differences, and the accommodations that should be in place to provide the necessary protections for the sex that is more vulnerable physically- women.

Identifying sex is often done merely by biological differences (size, shape, voice etc.) but on top of this most people do present their sex via clothing hair etc. because it makes life easier for themselves and everyone else.

It slows down casual social interactions, adds confusion at the start of meeting someone, and creates awkwardness. It's useful to know someone's sex automatically.

Not everyone will conform to typical gender appearance, behaviour and clothing etc. and that's fine. But most people will, so the only way to reach the near future fantasy would be by authority imo.

As a child I remember asking if Michael Jackson was a man or a woman*

Well this isn't a great example, is it? Considering how cosmetically altered his appearance was.

I have always been corrected by native English speakers who have all insisted that your sexual preference is linked to whether or not you are gender conforming.

Tbf, I think this is accurate - a lesbian, by virtue of not being oriented towards males and male bodies, is not conforming to the gender box rules that do include heterosexuality as the norm. This is one of the reasons why the term 'cis lesbian' is such a nonsense.

It's a completely hypothetical question because we don't really gauge the sex of a person based on whether they are GNC or not. That's the reason why certain people find themselves being called 'sir', much to their horror, even though they are wearing blush pink blouses and think they should therefore read as female.

Even if we were to all have identical haircuts and clothes, it would at most take a second look to tell with significant accuracy what sex the person is, because the physical characteristics are what humans use to make those assessments, and even with plastic surgery and other interventions, it's very rare to be able to disguise sex effectively for more than a well lit posed photo.

I have always been corrected by native English speakers who have all insisted that your sexual preference is linked to whether or not you are gender conforming.

I suspect these are native English speakers who don't know their language very well.

“Because I'd guess that inviting us all to gawp at pictures of this person trying to discern their sex - and then sharing our opinions - would qualify as "not in the spirit" and might get this thread deleted, BertrandRussell.

Put more simply, it seems mean to me.”

Yes of course you’re right. I just get so fed up of all this “secret squirrelling”. But in this case it’s entirely appropriate.

As a child I remember asking if Michael Jackson was a man or a woman.

I don't want to name them but there is a person on TV I'm genuinely unsure about their sex.

Why don’t you want to name them?

Because I'd guess that inviting us all to gawp at pictures of this person trying to discern their sex - and then sharing our opinions - would qualify as "not in the spirit" and might get this thread deleted, BertrandRussell.

Put more simply, it seems mean to me.

I think the “verbal abuse” might be something like what I said to a very obviously male presenting man in a loo recently “I think you might have come in the wrong door” to which he replied “Oh, i’m so sorry, I think I have”

Or it could possibly be just plain homophobic abuse- still happens a lot- and nothing to do with male/female presentation alt all.

I know what sexuality means bertrand, but I have always been corrected by native English speakers who have all insisted that your sexual preference is linked to whether or not you are gender conforming.

Bertrand, no, she still heavily uses twitter, instagram etc.

I have had a few female friends who have received verbal abuse from other women for using the womens toilets as they are quite masc looking women.

I keep hearing this claim but have never come across it in real life.

Er, no, hope you didn't really mean to post a photo without someone's consent?

What a screen grab from tv or a link would surely be totally fine given they are on tv and clearly not hiding away?

I thought your friend Paris Lees was taking a mental health break from social media. Probably not then a good idea to use her as an example on here? Just a thought?

The thing about your friend Paris Lees is that despite all the thousands of pounds of surgery and all rehearsed femininity, I could tell she was trans on that Survival programme, even if I hadn't known. Uncanny valley territory

“I had always been under the impression that in English sexuality can be a reflection of your gender conformity”
Sexuality means your sexual preference. Which in my opinion means straight, gay or bi. Although I come from a generation where bi was considered by activists as a cop out.

“I don't want to name them but there is a person on TV I'm genuinely unsure about their sex ”

Why don’t you want to name them?

I'm not sure that's right though, as sex and gender are different. You can have very feminine and very masculine gay men and lesbians, for example.

Drspouse I may have got my English wrong, I had always been under the impression that in English sexuality can be a reflection of your gender conformity. Apologies if my English isn’t correct.

@lionelduty Such a situation would not last long. We have a need to know. Complete gender neutrality is a myth. The need to know is part of our genetic programming; it's part of nature's plan for the propagation of the species. If we erase all the markers we now have we would develop others. Or we would develop a finer instinct which would tell us who is male and who is female. We cannot erase biology.

As I said above: on an unconscious level we are always trying to figure it out.

a persons sexuality can reflect a gender norm/not reflect it.
In what way?