Let Toys Be Toys has fallen

Well twitterland is putting them right (mostly).

Yet we have the transgender movement to thank for normalising the conversation about gender and gender expression

When I see stuff like this I wonder whether the person is very young and has no knowledge of what was going on in the 20th century. Hippies? Glam rock? David Bowie? Rude girls? New Romantics? Boy George?

What we have to thank the transgender movement for is that whereas in previous decades gender bending men were allowed to express themselves as "feminine" men and gender bending women were allowed to express themselves as "masculine" women, these days gender bending means that someone is really the opposite sex in some mysterious way and they are encouraged to "change gender" putting themselves on a medical treatment regime for the rest of their lives. Great. Just bloody great.

I can't understand the juxtaposition of their pinned tweet of the vicous circle of gendered toys and the promoting of this book.

At a societal level:

• 'social pressure to follow the norm increases'
• fewer people break gender norms

and...'Let Toys Be Toys'.

There's not even a need to believe that body dysphoria isn't a thing to still recognise that this spirallng cycle traps children in this circle and the only way to step off is increasingly calling 'trans'.

Yet we have the transgender movement to thank for normalising the conversation about gender and gender expression

When I see stuff like this I wonder whether the person is very young and has no knowledge of what was going on in the 20th century. Hippies? Glam rock? David Bowie? Rude girls? New Romantics? Boy George?

What we have to thank the transgender movement for is that whereas in previous decades gender bending men were allowed to express themselves as "feminine" men and gender bending women were allowed to express themselves as "masculine" women, these days gender bending means that someone is really the opposite sex in some mysterious way and they are encouraged to "change gender" putting themselves on a medical treatment regime for the rest of their lives. Great. Just bloody great.

Bathtime1: "s1naidsucks- you sound hysterical."

No, I think s1naidsucks sounds angry. And i understand their anger. This was one campaign that stood up for breaking down gender stereotypes.

God knows I wish we could “abolish gender” and everyone could be free to live, dress and express themselves however they want but that is a huge social change that I don’t think can be solved on Mumsnet.

So do we all just give up and not fight the fight for 'everyone could be free to live, dress and express themselves however they want'? And medicalise the condition of 'expressing themselves' into 'you're the other sex' whenever it occurs?

Oh, and whilst we're on stereotypes, often the word 'hysterical' tends to be plonked as a label on a woman who is angry, and showing it, and often ever attached to a man in the context of 'hysterically funny'.

I feel for any poor girl at school these days who is, well a tomboy. I can imagine some newly minted stonewall/mermaids trained idiot gleefully waving this nonsense at the poor child and egging them on to embrace their maleness.

Remember in the old days when schools couldn’t ‘promote’ homosexuality? They seem to positively downright push trans these days.

And you know what? It’s none of the schools fucking business. Kids are there to learn to read and write not be brainwashed by the newest social contagion.

For Gods sake look at some detransitioning stories and the numbers of girls trying desperately to identify out of the oppression you're shoring up.

Not compound it by finding a way they can bind their breasts more effectively and without injury.

And yes TheGrey1houndSpeaks those with a vested interest I can understand, when they misunderstand or buy the nonsense.

But those who are in a position of responsibility who can see, with their own eyes, the negative effects, but just haven't thought it through, is becoming increasingly incomprehensible to me.

And I'm not really sure which of those two camps that particular poster falls into, to be honest.

Acknowledging what the problem is, whilst accusing women of being old-fashioned, smacks little too much of TRA.

To be honest Datun it's nearly as bad as the original cinderella.

What about the girls in your school starting to realise they are lesbian, and therefore exclusively attracted to other humans with female biology? Are you going to further the doctrine that they must 'get over' and be 'educated' out of their homosexuality so that they don't upset males who want to be treated as girls?

This is also known as conversion therapy- however the boy who believes he is a girl should be unconditionally affirmed and doesn't need to get over or be educated out of anything. Even the appalling belief that girls have no right to a sex life that excludes males and girls who insist on making that choice in defiance of the doctrine should be shunned, raped or lynched? (See the Pride Parade for placards.)

Oh but wait! There's a way out of it for the girl! If she'll just 'come out' as a boy then all the abuse stops dead! She can now date whoever she likes with whatever sexuality she likes and will be applauded for doing so. The price for this escape however will be her health and her body.

Adults supporting this and deluding themselves about the realities of it are culpable for what is happening and will happen in the future to these girls. For Gods sake look at some detransitioning stories and the numbers of girls trying desperately to identify out of the oppression you're shoring up.

I feel really sad if they have started embracing stereotypes now

Datun is being the voice of utter reason as usual. Why is it such an uphill struggle? What is wrong with some people’s comprehension?

Thanks for taking one for the team Ihaventgottimeforthis

Would they, I wonder, ever, in a month of Sundays, have Jamie falling in love with a boy?

And then nail their colours to their nonsense mast and claim Jamie was gay?

Yet we have the transgender movement to thank for normalising the conversation about gender and gender expression

I'll think you'll find that women have been at the fore-front of the demands to be allowed to wear trousers, sensible shoes, practical uniforms, way before transgender was a thing.

Feminist theory brought us the distinction between gender and sex (because women wanted to be liberated from forced femininity)

And as to gender expression - I think the goths, grunge, and before that hippies and punks were all pretty key there - and they managed it without trying to force their fashion choices on everyone else too!

And I remember being rather confused at the pantomime when the lead boy was played by a lead girl. I kept thinking ‘that princess is in for a shock...’

OK, all watched. The suit and the short hair made everyone at the ball assume Jamie was a boy.
The Princess likes Jamie, lucky that he's a boy eh. Can't have a girl falling in love with another girl, can we.
Come on bathtime17 this is ridiculous.

This is more likely to confuse children more. So Milly doesn’t like dolls and would rather roll in the mud. Milly must be a boy then! Bill has a doll and doesn’t like football? Well he must be a girl then. And that’s ok, few pills here and a sleepy ride on the surgeons magic carpet and Milly can be a real boy!

Load of nonsense. Why not just have an ordinary story where kids do ordinary stuff?

it wasn’t at all about enforcing gender stereotypes, simply about a girl who felt they were more comfortable identifying as a boy.

Can you explain a bit more about what it means when a girl 'identifies as a boy'? When someone insists they are something they are not, we usually call this a delusion.

It’s a feeling of wanting to be seen and accepted as how they feel inside.

We can't control how others see us or their acceptance of us. Are people to be forced not to recognise other people's sex?

The main character of Jamie even states that it isn’t the suit or the pumpkin car that makes him feel better, it’s the ability to be himself.

What does 'the ability to be himself' mean, though? A girl pretending she's a boy is clearly not being herself.

Bathtime17 These are the hard questions you need to be able to answer if you're going to start teaching children that they can choose their sex (which of course they can't). Why does this girl see being female as such a terrible thing that she refuses to accept her sex? What is wrong with being a masculine presenting woman?

Yet we have the transgender movement to thank for normalising the conversation about gender and gender expression.

No. We have the transgender movement to thank for causing confusion amongst gender non-conforming children and telling them that they can choose their sex.

Bathtime17

If the transgender movement was about gender nonconformity and breaking down stereotypes, they would say that boys can do stereotypical girls' stuff and girls stereotyoical boys' stuff.

They don't.

They say if boys want to do traditional girl stuff, it's probably because they're a girl inside. Ie have a girl identity. It cements gender.

And if you point this out, they say oh it's not that though, it's about science. There is no science to support that. None.

bathtime as a youngster I felt I was a boy and something was wrong.

It wasn’t.

It was just an effect of bullying because of my gender none compliance coupled with a developing body

Glad nobody took much notice beyond helping me grow up

Update - Jamie puts on a suit and cuts her hair short, she looks in the mirror and suddenly realises that she is a boy!

So, what is not stereotypical about that Bathtime17?

"But there are hormonal differences between men and women and sometimes this can explain why some people feel more comfortable expressing themselves as a certain gender." - yeah, I'd also like more explanation of this, as it sounds like dangerous made up nonsense to me.

"we have the transgender movement to thank for normalising the conversation about gender and gender expression." - no we really don't. I know that young people like to think they've invented everything, but this is not the case. The transgender movement is regressive and needs those stereotypes to exist, and to be embedded even further than they already are. It's really really not about breaking down sex based stereotypes.

Bathtime17 I've just started watching the vid on yt and it's ridiculous! Jamie has to do all the cooking and cleaning, Jamie isn't allowed to cut her hair or wear the clothes she wants to!
I sincerely hope it gets better, they've certainly gone in heavy with the stereotypes in the first few mins...

I'm not following, please could you explain a bit more?

I was completely confused by that bit you quoted too, jellyfrizz. It didn’t seem to contain an actual argument or make any sense at all, did it? Or did I miss something?

Can you clarify what the point you were making was, Bathtime17?

But there are hormonal differences between men and women and sometimes this can explain why some people feel more comfortable expressing themselves as a certain gender.

Scientific paper cite please?

This is the illusion that's causing the problems.

identifying as a boy.

Identify with but it's impossible to be the opposite sex.

This is what kids are confused about.

Sex matters. For many many reasons.

Stop gaslighting kids.