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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Vancouver activist Morgane Oger wins ‘landmark’ transgender rights decision

41 replies

EweSurname · 28/03/2019 07:38

Oh Canada. This is awful

www.thestar.com/news/canada/2019/03/27/transgender-rights-upheld-in-landmark-decision.html

“I am really so happy, that in a tribunal, using the law, we finally put it down that someone publishing hateful material that says that a transgender woman is a man, got in trouble,” she said.

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NellieEllie · 29/03/2019 12:29

I think that saying someone is not for for a position or job BECAUSE they are transgender, actively campaigning against them BECAUSE they are transgender is discriminatory.

Being GC to me is not about that. Believing trans women are not women is not personally attacking a trans person for being trans. It’s stating objective reality. Same as thinking trans women should not compete against women in sport.

R0wantrees · 29/03/2019 11:47

I agree with this. Its nothing to do with Oger being trans thats the problem with them being in office. It is however, that they are an abusive male, behaving excatly like abusive males tend to.

YY its the same obfuscation in prison policy, women's sports etc.

Being able to cite the allegation as a problem with 'transgender people' hides the specific issue with either an individual male or group of males whose actions /behaviours represent specific (previously identifyable) risks or threats to Safeguarding / Fairplay / opportunity etc

TheGoalIsToStayOutOfTheHole · 29/03/2019 09:15

Stating that "Oger is transgender and hence unfit for office" is reasonable to prohibit.

I agree with this. Its nothing to do with Oger being trans thats the problem with them being in office. It is however, that they are an abusive male, behaving excatly like abusive males tend to.

MsTiggywinkletoyou · 29/03/2019 01:13

stealthsquirrelnutkin ereshkigel I think the "you are denying my existence" trope, and the concept of "narcissistic injury", are important enough to start another thread. Otherwise people who are uninterested in Morgane will not find your excellent contributions.

SignMeUp · 29/03/2019 00:46

This entire shit-show is a massive distraction
Can we get back to women's liberation?
And saving the EARTH?
Civil rights are still precarious
Systemic oppressions require deep and nuanced intersectionality
Not dogma and mantras

This news is very bad news.
Hate speech and hate crime? Define literal violence please
Free Speech and Free mind?

Slipping towards totalitarianism

Ereshkigal · 28/03/2019 22:51

Which would explain how differentiating between male bodied people with a feminine gender identity and biological women determined to preserve their sex based safe spaces can feel like a "hateful" attack by someone "threatening your very existence".

It's experienced as a "narcissistic injury"

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-legacy-distorted-love/201608/the-destructive-force-narcissistic-injury

stealthsquirrelnutkin · 28/03/2019 17:33

People's feelings about themselves and their 'identity' has never been in question. I'm really not sure if this talk of having one's "existence denied" is down to wilful ignorance, or just plain stupidity. This line of thought does not pass the most simple tests of reason or rationality.

I read this recently on GenderCritical Reddit.

"I think when they say "you are invalidating my existence" they really mean it. The woman they "create", and are in love with, only exists through them putting certain types of clothing (makeup, affectations) on and presenting "her" to the world. If you see through "her" to him, "she" doesn't exist."

Which would explain how differentiating between male bodied people with a feminine gender identity and biological women determined to preserve their sex based safe spaces can feel like a "hateful" attack by someone "threatening your very existence".

LauraMipsum · 28/03/2019 16:08

Came here to post the link to the judgment but I see others have got there first.

Whatcott is no friend to feminism. The flyers are not just wrong (he talks about GENDER, not sex, as God-given - i.e. conform to your sex stereotypes because God ordained them - the opposite of feminism) but also clearly targeted Oger in a way that was unlawful under Canadian law. From an initial reading I think the court was right to find against him, and that's regardless of my views on Oger.

R0wantrees · 28/03/2019 14:03

Two Spirit. I believe it's a cultural thing in Canada relating to Native Tribes (but of course co-opted and revised by the woke)

Ah, thank you.
This appropriation was criticised at the Vancouver Library event organised by Meghan Murphy in January:

Feminst Current:
"Fay Blaney spoke truth to power, shutting down any possibility of discrediting the independent, grassroots women’s movement. Blaney challenged the myth of numerous “genders” in Indigenous cultures, wielded by trans activists in order to justify post-modern, academic theories about “gender identity,” and claim them as “non-Western” for identity politics points. Blaney said, “There are people who are talking about how Indigenous nations had five genders. That’s absolute B.S." (continues)

www.feministcurrent.com/2019/01/11/vancouver-gender-identity-event-a-roaring-success-gidvpl/

from thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3479722-Lee-akeman-Vancouver-Jan-2019

MsTiggywinkletoyou · 28/03/2019 13:56

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-spirit

OvaHere · 28/03/2019 13:46

LGBTQ2S what's the 2S?

Two Spirit. I believe it's a cultural thing in Canada relating to Native Tribes (but of course co-opted and revised by the woke).

R0wantrees · 28/03/2019 13:37

Trudeau has issues but he has nothing to do with what the BC Human Rights Tribunal does. Or even with BC Human Rights legislation

Worth being aware of key advisors:
2016 Randy Boissonnault, Member of Parliament for Edmonton Centre, has been named Special Advisor on LGBTQ2 issues.
pm.gc.ca/eng/news/2016/11/15/prime-minister-announces-special-advisor-lgbtq2-issues

2017 Independent article:
"Justin Trudeau's government continues to discriminate against transgender people. His apology means nothing
Although we acknowledge the recent trans legal gains to which the liberal government has contributed, we also denounce the lack of efforts to solve urgent issues that continue to affect the most precarious and stigmatised members of our community"
(extract)
"But we must not be so complacent as to position this apology as the crowning achievement or final destination for the entire LGBTQ2S community; it is just another chapter.

It may seem juvenile to reject an offer from a government trying to make amends after causing so much harm to so many LGBTQ2S people. But it is so important to rise to the challenge, and ask the hard questions: who is this apology for and for what political purposes? Who are we forgetting?

Although we acknowledge the recent trans legal gains to which the liberal government has contributed, we also denounce the lack of efforts to solve urgent issues that continue to affect the most precarious and stigmatised members of our community." (continues)
www.independent.co.uk/voices/justin-trudeau-lgbt-queer-transgender-apology-canada-government-crimes-cold-war-discrimination-a8084276.html

LGBTQ2S what's the 2S?

Iused2BanOptimist · 28/03/2019 13:27

It's a strange world when you go to Kiwi Farms for a dose of reality and choice comment.

Lumene · 28/03/2019 13:15

I am gender critical but this case seems to be about a man trargetting a trans woman by distributing flyers riddled with accusations. It just seems on a whole different level to having a heated discussion with someone. I think the trans person was right to take action in the case.

Totally agree. TRAs are good at targeting actual hate and/or hateful people legally and then conflating them with people’s right to believe in biological reality while respecting differences in beliefs etc.

FeministCat · 28/03/2019 12:19

Trudeau has issues but he has nothing to do with what the BC Human Rights Tribunal does. Or even with BC Human Rights legislation.

BlooperReel · 28/03/2019 12:14

Anyone else wonder if Trudeau is an AGP behind clothes doors? I just cannot fathom why else he is so on board with this bollocks.

FeministCat · 28/03/2019 12:12

PalatineUvula

Whatcott’s campaign was flyer based. From the decision:

Whatcott created a flyer entitled “Transgenderism vs. Truth in Vancouver‐False Creek” [Flyer]. In it, he called Ms. Oger a “biological male who has renamed himself... after he embraced a transvestite lifestyle”. He expressed a concern “about the promotion and growth of homosexuality and transvestitism in British Columbia and how it is obscuring the immutable truth about our God given gender”. He described being transgender as an “impossibility”, which exposes people to harm and constitutes a sin. Mr. Whatcott ended the Flyer with a call to action: do not vote for Ms. Oger or the NDP.

Mr. Whatcott handed the Flyer out on street corners, taped it to doors, and put it in mailboxes. In this way, he distributed 1500 copies of the Flyer in and around Ms. Oger’s riding. The Flyer was then further disseminated through the internet. Mr. Whatcott estimates that 10,000 people saw the Flyer.

FeministCat · 28/03/2019 12:07

The decision is here: www.westcoastleaf.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/58_Oger_v_Whatcott_No_7_2019_BCHRT_58.pdf

I don’t think it as dire as it seems; the media and Ogers lawyer represent this is a landmark case for Canada but not really:

  1. This was under BC Human Rights legislation that has a section on discriminatory publication. Each province has their own legislation, has their own process, their own precedents, their own tribunals. Human rights cases are very fact specific. Oger’s lawyer plays it up as significant across the country but not really. Other tribunals in other provinces may find it “interesting” but they certainly aren’t bound by it. And it certainly is not binding on higher courts. Section 7 of the BC legislation reads:
  • ^Discriminatory publication
7 (1) A person must not publish, issue or display, or cause to be published, issued or displayed, any statement, publication, notice, sign, symbol, emblem or other representation that (a) indicates discrimination or an intention to discriminate against a person or a group or class of persons, or (b) is likely to expose a person or a group or class of persons to hatred or contempt because of the race, colour, ancestry, place of origin, religion, marital status, family status, physical or mental disability, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, or age of that person or that group or class of persons. (2) Subsection (1) does not apply to a private communication, a communication intended to be private or a communication related to an activity otherwise permitted by this Code^.
  1. This was a case specifically about a flyer campaign directed at a very specific person who is also in the political arena, not an overall discussion of trans ideology. The campaign from Whatcott had zero to do with Ogers suitability for office other than attack them as transgender (ie saying unsuitable for office because they are transgender.). It was definitely not a rounded discussion about “gender identity” or other concerns about trans ideology. Whatcott is not from Ogers riding (indeed, I thought he had moved to the Philippines or something, guess not). Whatcott is well known for running these attack campaigns though generally not targeted against one person (campaigns to make homosexuality and abortion illegal like sending flyers to people with fetal parts, for example). He has been in numerous tribunals across Canada and I have no doubt that is a strategy of his.
  1. The hearings were a mess. I don’t think Whatcott did Whatcott any favors. He ‘objected’ to the authority of the tribunal (not sure if he is a “freeman of the land” or not, I don’t think so but that is common for them). Whatcott’s side/support had many outbursts, counsel recited bible verse, insulted the tribunal. During proceedings Whatcott left to distribute more flyers. This is where the extra $20,000 came from.
  1. I am not sure if it will be appealed or not. I don’t think section 7 of the BC act has ever really been tested in court but I also think the facts in this one are terrible ones to make this is a test case.
PalatineUvula · 28/03/2019 11:32

Stating that "Oger is transgender and hence unfit for office" is reasonable to prohibit.

Did you just make that up? Or is it something that was said?

MsTiggywinkletoyou · 28/03/2019 11:02

Morgane Oger is a politician, and as such lives a lot of life in public (or in publications). I've dug up a few articles, for background interest:
A 2014 profile in a national publication uses the natal name without apology.
www.macleans.ca/news/canada/morgane-oger-embraces-her-trans-identity/

Another early interview, in which Oger's young child is quoted:
www.straight.com/life/696296/pride-2014-parents-morgane-oger-being-transgender-parent

Trail-blazing in 2016
www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/morgane-oger-historic-nomination-bc-ndp-1.3870285

From July 2018
Toxic Trans: The Strange Case of Morgane Oger and the BC NDP [British Columbia New Democratic Party]

Another detailed analysis (hosted on a website called Transanity):
The Curious Case of the Reality Denying Oger; or, How to Succeed in the Business of Cultural Fascism

And the latest news story:
Vancouver activist Morgane Oger wins ‘landmark’ transgender rights decision

eurochick · 28/03/2019 10:49

Both parties sound odious tbh. But the ruling is unhelpful if it can be used (and I'm sure it will) to stifle future, more reasonable, debate on women's rights v trans rights.

Iused2BanOptimist · 28/03/2019 10:25

“Vancouver Rape Relief and other organizations that are publicly funded are responsible for keeping up the highest standard of inclusion,” Oger said, adding the group helps only a subset of women."

So actual real uterus having women are "only a subset" of women.
We're the ones deserving of compensation for the appropriation and insult. Angry

birdsdestiny · 28/03/2019 10:05

Yep he is an arse as well.

KatvonfeelzlikeaMAN · 28/03/2019 10:02

Yeah, but that Bill bloke was knocking on doors going "God does not want you to vote for this tra* supporter of homosexuals etc etc"
He probably did more harm than good. Bonkers.

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