Deborah Orr

It's not the previous opinion that makes me uneasy crone it's the previous contempt.

I'll never forget the personal contacts who described my/the GC position as "bigotry" either. Il not going to seek them out and pelt them with rotten cabbages, but I do remember.

To answer your question, I went straight from bemused to GC. But it's only my lack of sneering that I'll accept crédit for. I know we all had to wrap our head around the move from Quentin Crisp to Monroe Bergdorf.

We can't help our feelings but that doesn't mean we can't question them.

But cole did you see that Janice Turner has also done an about face? She has been instrumental in writing for reputable papers to get the word out to the non right wing readers.

Cole was there ever a time when you thought differently to how you think now? Was there ever a time when you were unaware of the dangers of the transgender movement? Have you ever come across new information and changed your mind on any issue?

I say to you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repents, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."

Gosh this took a turn

I'm not sure I'm very keen at having bible verse quoted at me to that my feelings are "wrong". (Too much of that in my background).

It's not a moral issue. It's a personal wariness issue.

If you can find some scripture to "prove" to me that I should trust Maria Miller, I'll be impressed.

This. I can't think of anything more counterproductive than others, who want to follow Orr's path, seeing her being met with disdain for not having seen the light earlier.

I wasn't suggesting I disdain her, just that I can't get excited about the sudden volte face. Sorry, I just can't.

Maybe because I don't fully trust anyone who's previously been quite so vocally sneery about the feminist position.

Yes, I am belatedly realising that this misogynistic, homophobic car crash has been going on for longer than I’ve been alive

Yes but the internet has caused it to gain momentum like never before. I think over the next 5 years you're going to find most people "peak trans". The concern is that it may well be too late legally.

Sheila Jeffreys describes attempts by a small number of males to access women's groups and spaces in the 1970's and how it was easier then for women to say 'no' collectively.
Short important speech in which Sheila Jeffreys identifies transgenderism as part of the men's sexual rights movement:

Yes, I am belatedly realising that this misogynistic, homophobic car crash has been going on for longer than I’ve been alive

I've been onboard for a long time now, but I definitely haven't been for 40 years. Most of us haven't. We're all taking our own time.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3538513-I-think-youll-all-find-this-interesting

But I'm not going to lionise any woman who derided us for championing women.

To paraphrase from a Mumford & Sons song, who I think got the concept from the parable of the Prodigal Son. It's not the long walk home which will change hearts, but the welcome received at the restart.

If you've been part of a toxic rigid and dogmatic social movement which doesn't allow any disagreement. If you're constantly having to check what you say lest you be shamed and piled. To leave all that and then to publicly speak against it is brave and I applaud people who do it.

@nauticant even the link name is "change or kill youself"

It's sad because she herself has been the victim of people saying she will make young trans people kill themselves because of her articles.

There are still people who think "trans" means transexual. And if you read the propaganda of TRAs you will think that no transwoman has ever attacked a woman. They state it pretty unequivocally. And it is repeated by important, clever people who should know better. So I can't blame anyone for a reverse ferret when they figure it out.

Give me strength - she’s thought about her views and reconsidered. Publicly. How exactly are we going to win this without people changing their minds?

Completely agree.

The more people who reverse-ferret, the better. It's wonderful to watch people changing their mind.

It's also fun watching people like Maria Miller doing so but pathetically trying to pretend she hasn't and that she never said that, it was someone else's fault.

All part of the process...

That is a very relevant article TheFrontHoleIsConnectedToThe. It's interesting to see how Turner was actually on the right path in some parts but overall went for "we must be nice". Presumably because she had the mindset that trans means transsexual.

In an otherwise mindful world, transgender people are just about the last group it is permissible to mock. “We are”, as Emma says, “the punchline to every joke.” From Shakespeare to Little Britain cross-dressing is seen as hilarious, saturnalian, perverse. A bunch of hairy ex-soldiers I know shove on lipstick and tutus so readily for fancy dress parties, I wonder if they do it for more than laughs.

I agree, Floisme. We need more people to change their minds, and vilifying those who do simply for not doing so sooner isn't going to help them to make that change.

I don't think it's just that people should be able to change their minds, it's also that we're not going to win this unless they do.

Sorry that was for @ColeHawlins re: changing minds.

Janice Turner.

A tortured childhood is the norm for those such as Emma. In America, parents are pressing for children who “persistently and insistently” identify with a different gender to play in opposite sex sports teams. In Britain, there is a furore about prescribing drugs that temporarily block the onset of puberty to gender-confused children as young as ten. It sounds like meddling medical insanity until you read how postponing dreaded secondary sexual characteristics reduces the horrific suicide rate.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-brutal-choice-change-sex-or-kill-yourself-f8cpstwkvlb

I think it is really important that she is public about changing her mind

I agree with this. People should be allowed to change their minds and admit they got something wrong.

Zanahoria. Yes she has. On twitter.

I think this has been coming a while. When I first started looking at this issue orr seemed to be someone who was trying to walk a middle road. Even though some trans people are also trying to find a middle path, middle paths are obviously not allowed according to most trans activists. She said that Paris Lees saying you are either with us or against us pushed her over.
I really hope she writes something lo g form about this.

Agree with Floisme and Nauticant

Good point. We criticise gender identity ideology for not allowing people a way out. If we're going to be consistent, surely we should be welcoming with open arms anyone who wants to escape from it.

I've got nothing but sympathy for Jack. She strikes me as scared to be hibest as she's in that circle now and can't get out.

Janice Turner and Hadley Freeman are the women journalists that I admire.

Actually I think Janice Turner did switch "sides". Nothing wrong with it though. People have been debating this for decades. Many people posting here have only revevaluated their thoughts on it over the last couple years.