TRAs try to ruin Mumsnet survey

I'm glad that there doesn't seem to be a drive across Mumsnet to just get rid of the feminism boards though, thanks Michael.

Many of the feminists who posted on this board for a long time are no longer here.
Some women who post regularly were/are targetted. It's often not immediately apparent.

That's sort of it's USP against Netmums though, isn't it? Different tones?

I'm glad that there doesn't seem to be a drive across Mumsnet to just get rid of the feminism boards though, thanks Michael.

I know from friends they found it a bit judgy and harsh, re parenting matters.

Agreed on that.

I read the survey to be looking at why many don't use mn.

I know from friends they found it a bit judgy and harsh, re parenting matters.

Another friend with no kids commented mn can 'send you the other way' - I think she meant 'to the right.'

The truth is that it's made me a stronger woman all round and taught me the ability to think critically,

&Who, if anyone, would you most like us to invite to take part in a Mumsnet webchat?*
(we want a load of cool guests - you can tell us who to invite)

An important (not so sure about cool) guest would be Pat Craven who founded The Freedom Programme

background here: freedomprogramme.co.uk/
"Freedom Programme is a domestic violence programme which was created by Pat Craven who holds the copyright (all rights reserved) and evolved from her work with perpetrators of domestic violence. We provide information, not therapy. Click here to read the mission statement

The Programme was primarily designed for women as victims of domestic violence, since research shows that in the vast majority of cases of serious abuse are male on female. However, the programme, when provided as an intensive two day course, is also suitable for men, whether abusive and wishing to change their attitudes and behaviour or whether victims of same sex domestic abuse themselves.

The Freedom Programme examines the roles played by attitudes and beliefs on the actions of abusive men and the responses of victims and survivors. The aim is to help them to make sense of and understand what has happened to them, instead of the whole experience just feeling like a horrible mess. The Freedom Programme also describes in detail how children are affected by being exposed to this kind of abuse and very importantly how their lives are improved when the abuse is removed. "
sample video 'The Bully'
freedomprogramme.co.uk/sample-online/bully1.php

isn't just about feeling stongly about it, its also about understanding and recognising the common (often hidden) dynamics & patterns.

Yes, as a former victim of coercive control I'd like you to acknowledge how it works rather than say you feel strongly about it. Appreciate the gesture of support for FWR but reiterate that some people have an agenda which may not always be apparent.

it takes a certain amount of mental strength coupled with thick skin to be on the receiving end of any pile on if you disagree with a majority

It's not mental strength you need at all. It's to show respect and to have a little patience.

There are situations where you need mental strength and a thick skin if you're seen to be disagreeing, RedToothBrush. I found this out a couple of weeks ago when I asked what I thought were very polite questions about an issue I didn't feel I understood. Most people who responded to me did as you suggested and responded calmly, patiently and clearly and helped my understanding. I thanked them for helping me to understand and asked some more questions. Some other people then became quite aggressive and insisted I was saying or implying things which were completely different to my actual meanings - simply for asking questions and admitting my own ignorance.

The whole episode made me angry, and then upset that people thought I was actually thinking the things I was being accused of saying.

It occurred to me that if a new poster had asked some questions because they genuinely wanted information and were subjected to that sort of pile on, it wouldn't help to get them to see your point of view. The patient, calm, clear posters have a much more positive effect. Which is why I always engage politely with people who have a different point of view to me (as long as they're being polite).

Yes, we know about coercive control. The whole community team (and Mumsnet as an organisation) feel very strongly about it

That's good to know, Michael. Thank you for letting us know. But this is not really the specific question you were being asked. Again, I know I bang on about it to the point of boring you to death - but the question is: do you take the principles of coercive control and apply them to the way you moderate the site to ensure that you are not acting as agents of coercive controllers?

As R0 said:

It isn't just about feeling stongly about it, its also about understanding and recognising the common (often hidden) dynamics & patterns.

In this case, it's not even hidden since your community members have pointed it out to you countless times and there are even explicit articles published on the internet about it.

And last but not least... the Feminism and Women's Rights board will be closed over my dead body.

Excellent response thank you Michael.
I did fill out that survey and noticed it took a lot on trust in what it asked so I’m sure you’ll be treating this survey like any other self selecting, self reporting survey- with a bit of caution.
I wondered if it might complement the responses from the survey if you could have a comparison group where you eg DM’ed a number of registered users of varying long-standingness of registration and send them individual unique links to use, asking them to reply to that same set of survey questions and see what you get back. You might find quite a difference in terms of knowledge of the site and breadth of comments and concerns between those members responses and the other responses to the online survey that just rage on about transphobes and ‘TerfsNet’

Yes, we know about coercive control. The whole community team (and Mumsnet as an organisation) feel very strongly about it.

And last but not least... the Feminism and Women's Rights board will be closed over my dead body.

Good to hear that out loud.

Yes, we know about coercive control. The whole community team (and Mumsnet as an organisation) feel very strongly about it

MN have done some great work in collaberation with Women's Aid & the police to try to raise awareness of Coersive Control.

Video 'WalkingOn Eggshells' here which is often promoted on the sidebar:
www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=hC1pCi-GwGU

It isn't just about feeling stongly about it, its also about understanding and recognising the common (often hidden) dynamics & patterns.

Women who have had first hand experience of coercive control / abuse are very aware of repeated patterns or 'red flags'

The thread Lang linked is a very valuable resource which highlights how the same attempted control patterns within relationships are also experienced online.

Trolling and Online Abuse - Is there a difference? by Coercive Control Conference twitter account
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1110452108183195649.html

@MichaelMumsnet I wonder if you might take a look and consider making it a source of consideration & perhaps discussion within the team please?

Thanks Michael.

Just a note though, we need to be able to use plain language, with normally accepted definitions to be able to discuss women's rights.

It'll be no good if, for example, we're not able to define the word "woman". Moderation is heavier-handed towards women discussing their rights than on any other topic on Mumsnet.

Thank you for the the update @MichaelMumsnet.

Much appreciated.

Women's Rights board will be closed over my dead body
Great news. Thanks Michael

On a night like this (I'm watching Parliament) that kind of honesty and commitment from @MichaelMN is incredibly refreshing and welcome.

Thank you

I’m sure I remember a couple more questions specifically about trans and brexit thread than are represented in that post

Yes, we know about coercive control. The whole community team (and Mumsnet as an organisation) feel very strongly about it.

And last but not least... the Feminism and Women's Rights board will be closed over my dead body

Thanks Michael - thats reassuring.

Thank you MNHQ. From a dedicated lurker (mostly)

Thank you.

That's somewhat reassuring.

And last but not least... the Feminism and Women's Rights board will be closed over my dead body.

Love that .. thank you.

Thank you, Michael. I appreciate that you've taken the time to engage with this thread.

Thanks Michael.

I think one important question is, why did you make it open to non-members? I know you asked the question, but couldn’t someone say they were but in fact not be? Surely MNHQ would of realised that a certain aggressive group of people would hear about it and complete it for one purpose only.

it takes a certain amount of mental strength coupled with thick skin to be on the receiving end of any pile on if you disagree with a majority

I've done it on MN before on certain issues which are important to users (women) and are taboo and not spoken about a great deal.

I've learnt that if your argument is sound and strong over time people will eventually come over to your point of view. Debate here helps you develop your case, and in some cases revise parts of your original point and strengthen it in doing so.

I do not believe you merely need a thick skin to challenge views. I think you just need a credible argument, phrased well and argued politely though robustly.

Where a lot fall down in challenging status quo views is through tone and being combatative and confrontational rather than realising its a slow process of chipping away at an argument. And if you haven't got a credible argument to begin with, you'll get shown up for the weakness of your point of view and for failing to think it all through.

It's not mental strength you need at all. It's to show respect and to have a little patience.

That’s fine, but why do they need to stop us from talking freely with each other? They don’t want to be here but they do want to take part in a survey that has nothing to do with them, to try and control what a bunch of mostly women talk about or how we talk about it? That is coercive control and it’s disturbing.