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Original poster

Wings of Scotland court case

207 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 25/03/2019 16:39

Brief context:

Ex Scottish labour Kezia Dugdale said (in print) that Wings was a homophobe because of a tweet he made.

The reason I think this case may be of interest is because so far:

Chelsea Manning is mentioned. @WingsScotland says Manning is ‘brave’ & a ‘hero’ but has repeatedly been accused of transphobia for his language towards the whistleblower. ‘An empirical biological fact that he is still a man,’ Campbell tells the court.

.@WingsScotland adds that he doesn’t know Manning’s sexuality & says it has no bearing on accusations of homophobia. Various comments by Wings referring to Manning as ‘he’. Being a transphobe does not make you a homophobe, Wings adds.

OP posts:
Original poster
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/04/2019 13:18

It's an interesting one too: tweet not homophobic, Dugdale was defamatory but defamation negated by fair comment defence.

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EweSurname · 17/04/2019 13:11

There's been a verdict:

wingsoverscotland.com/the-severed-baby/

LassOfFyvie · 27/03/2019 18:24

Belittling, yes, homophobic, no. To my mind homophobia requires something much stronger than that

Part of the difficulty seems to be that "homophobia" is changing in meaning from something having overtones of hate and violence to lazy and negative stereotyping

I suppose at what point, if at all, does belittling and lazy and negative stereotyping cross a line to be actual hate?

nauticant · 27/03/2019 18:16

I don't actually see the comment as being homophobic. Belittling, yes, homophobic, no. To my mind homophobia requires something much stronger than that.

Part of the difficulty seems to be that "homophobia" is changing in meaning from something having overtones of hate and violence to lazy and negative stereotyping.

MeAgainAgain · 27/03/2019 17:37

The girls and homosexuals thing is clearly both sexist and homophobic

It's about non men

Who are lesser.

Girls are crap at computer games /like crap computer games
Gay men are no better than girls ie crap

Just reading thread surprised anyone thinks otherwise

Is like runs like a girl /so gay

LassOfFyvie · 27/03/2019 17:21

Kezia's QC said read the article once - what impression does it leave on the reasonable reader?

The impression it made on me was it was a tasteless attempt at a joke the punchline of which depended on a person being homosexual.

Kezia's QC also said It was Mundell Senior who was the butt of the joke - it was his sexuality that was used to make the joke”. The only way the joke works is to focus on DM’s sexuality

When I saw the tweet that was my first impression. It did not draw my attention to David Mundell's speaking skills.

Campbell acknowledged it could be seen that way , as Mundell snr being the butt of the joke, by someone who is dishonest or stupid. I am not being dishonest so I guess I must be stupid.

LassOfFyvie · 27/03/2019 17:03

"girl" means female under 18, not 16

There is no legal definition of girl although many on MN seems to think 18 is a magical number. In Scotland you can marry without parental consent at 16.

Melroses · 27/03/2019 16:37

You can't have too many umbrellas. They cover a multitude...…...

Melroses · 27/03/2019 16:36

There's a bit of a wait then.

I suppose a considered judgement requires a lot of consideration.

nauticant · 27/03/2019 16:28

I suppose the goal for some would be for there to be an umbrella "phobia" under which all the other phobias can sit, homophobia, transphobia, kink-shaming, etc. Maybe something like queerphobia.

RepealTheGRA · 27/03/2019 16:15

Yep, if the court rules that ‘transphobia’ = homophobia I think the end result would be homophobia also losing all meaning with the general public and gay rights being rolled back Sad

nauticant · 27/03/2019 16:08

If the account given on twitter is accurate then losing would mean that saying Chelsea Manning is a man means that Campbell is a "transphobe", as a transphobe he is likely to be a homophobe "because the T must always be with the L, G, and B", and as a transphobe he has very little reputation that he can seek to protect.

It's ironic that much of the case was about Dugdale's freedom of speech.

RepealTheGRA · 27/03/2019 15:59

I really hope Wings wins this case - not for his sake, but because if he loses it would appear to have all sorts of unpleasant ramifications.

Yes, for the sake of sanity and free speech he has to win. Words mean things and we all need to agree on those meanings.

Original poster
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/03/2019 15:48

I really hope Wings wins this case - not for his sake, but because if he loses it would appear to have all sorts of unpleasant ramifications.

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nauticant · 27/03/2019 15:47

And that’s that - Sheriff Ross sends the case to “avizandum” (meaning he’s going to go away and think about it) - he says he’d normally try to be back within four weeks, and will “do my best”

GabrielleNelson · 27/03/2019 15:25

Poorly worded on my part. What I was trying to say was that there was no reason to think that girls and gay men would be similarly challenged by playing video games, while 'real men' would of course be brilliant at them.

nauticant · 27/03/2019 15:10

There's also another twitter thread. It's rather sinister to see identity politics argued over in a court because the side pushing for "obey the identity" does their advocate job and pushes the argument as far as it goes. And it then looks very authoritarian.

Original poster
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/03/2019 15:00

Mr Dunlop says if Mr Campbell has shown himself to be transphobic, “no substantial award would be appropriate” for calling him a homophobe. Sheriff Ross asks if SC can’t choose to be rude to some people but not others.

Mr Dunlop says if someone is claimed to be a “thief and a paedophile”, and only the latter was true, they wouldn’t be able to sue for defamation about the “thief” part because their reputation would already be so low.

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nauticant · 27/03/2019 14:29

Damn these slow fingers

nauticant · 27/03/2019 14:28

Yes. Although that's a common feature of many legal cases, this was one discussing "homophobia" in particular and, unsurprising for us, that somehow became combined with accusations of "transphobia".

Apparently though we won't be seeing a decision for quite some time.

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 27/03/2019 14:27

It's not interesting because of Wings or Kezia, it's interesting because of the way it is considering the use and definition of words in law.

Agreed. Also interesting to see KD argue that transphobia = homophobia, when actually transgenderism = homophobia (in my view).

Original poster
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/03/2019 14:22

That's why I think this case is worth paying attention to

Yy. That's why I picked up on it in the first place. It's not interesting because of Wings or Kezia, it's interesting because of the way it is considering the use and definition of words in law.

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nauticant · 27/03/2019 14:18

That's why I think this case is worth paying attention to ItsAllGoingToBeFine. Should we detach meanings from words and let things drift off into the realm of feelings? And to what degree will a court go along with that?

Original poster
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/03/2019 14:06

Mr Sandison says the defence seem to give homophobia a definition “far removed from its ordinary and natural meaning”; it would have to include anything about a gay person which they or another homosexual did not want to hear.

I thought this was an interesting comment from the tweet thread too.

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SonicVersusGynaephobia · 27/03/2019 14:00

Yes Lass, I am serious. Gabrielle said:

The gaming ability of girls is clearly not likely to be the same as gay men

Why?

I don't doubt it was a derogatory comment to BOTH groups (gay men and girls), but I don't see why Gabrielle is suggesting that it is wrong for homosexual men to be lumped in with girls and their "lower ability". I don't believe that girls' ability is lower than homosexual males. I don't believe the ability of either girls or homosexual males is lower than straight males. It's equally insulting to both gay men and girls, not one group over the other.

This is clearly not a game aimed at young children, so it's not that age is what is supposedly restricting ability. "girl" means female under 18, not 16.