Caroline's Mail on Sunday Piece is Out

It’s horrible. I too wonder where Jackie is in this: not because I think they owe anything to anyone as I think they were abused by their parents, but because why is Suzie Green the “victim” or the complainant in this? Jackie is an adult and surely if the comments were about them they should be ones to complain if they feel necessary?

Mermaids Charity released a statement this morning which they claim is based on Jackie Green's wishes.

see thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3541977-Another-Mermaid-statement-about-Good-Morning-Britain-and-Caroline-Farrow

My brother played dress up with my mum’s clothes when he was a toddler as well. As a toddler he would talk about wanting to grow up to be a “Chinese woman” (we are not Chinese, But his best friend then was Chinese and he also loved Chinese food).

My brother grew up to be a happy, healthy, gay man. I also can point to many happy, healthy, straight men who liked to pull dresses out of the dress up box as toddlers.

If he had had the Greens’ for parents he would have been medicalized and castrated. And the Greens aren’t the only ones (see Jazz Jennings parents etc) who out of a strict adherence to sex stereotypes and homophobia are turning their children into people who will be medically dependent for the rest of their lives, along with teaching them stereotypes are actually ones sex.

It’s horrible. I too wonder where Jackie is in this: not because I think they owe anything to anyone as I think they were abused by their parents, but because why is Suzie Green the “victim” or the complainant in this? Jackie is an adult and surely if the comments were about them they should be ones to complain if they feel necessary?

Just goes to show it’s all about Suzie and always has been.

I'd imagine that these stories come from Mermaids' residential weekends.

Last year Victoria Derbyshire Show had a program promoting Mermaids / Susie Green's viewpoints.

This was filmed at a Mermaids residential event.

BBC Article:
Transgender children: Buying time by delaying puberty
By Jim Reed
Reporter, Victoria Derbyshire programme

(extract)
Jessica's mother and stepfather both said they felt "relieved" for their daughter who was particularly worried about developing facial hair.

"I don't know whether to be happy or sad," said mum Ella.

"I know it's not the end and the effects are reversible. But for me it reaffirmed that this is the end of [my son] James."

"The most important thing to us is the happiness of our child, forcing them to try and be something they're not is not an option. We just want her to be happy, that's all."

So far, her mum, Jen, says, it's been about helping her fit in and dealing with the odd nasty comment from one classmate, who said she would never be a "proper" woman.

"I have to do everything I can as a mother to protect my child - to talk to her so she knows how to deal with those comments - but also to talk to the other child's parents so they can help their child understand," she explains.

"I didn't want that child punishing, I think it's more about them being talked to and helped understand the situation because what he was saying was wrong. She can be a woman and develop as a woman and grow up as a lady if that's what she wants to do."

Lily herself said her friends stood up for her, but she feels "not good, upset," when comments like that are made.

Both girls recently spent the weekend at a camp for trans children and their families, run by the Mermaids charity.

It was attended by around 30 children between the ages of six and 19, who spend time socialising or in workshops on bullying, self-esteem or how to report hate crimes.

The charity keeps the location secret - 17 times in the past six months its founder, Suzie Green, has reported abusive online messages to the police. Eight cases in the past year have been investigated as suspected hate crimes.

"We were being called paedophiles, we were being accused of being child abusers," she says. "In fact they even did a mock-up of a van with puppies and sweets on the side saying that Mermaids are trawling infant schools trying to pick up children to make them trans. It is ridiculous."

More than half young trans people say they have been the victim of hate crime in the last year, according to research from the Stonewall charity." (continues)
www.bbc.com/news/uk-44661079

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3294478-Victoria-Derbyshire-show-today-transgender-children-buying-time-by-delaying-puberty

From the article:

"In the quest for knowledge, parents of children with gender identity issues have shared personal experiences with each other".

I'd imagine that these stories come from Mermaids' residential weekends.

Tales around the camp fire, that kind of thing. Parents trying to outdo each other.

Mind you, Susie Green doesn't have a great record on the truth front. So it could all be made up like the suicide statistics anyway.

And yes, I wondered if it was the same child.

Where Social Services unquestioningly affirm that a young child must be the opposite sex if a parent says so, and they then instruct schools and nurseries to play along with that delusion no matter what, then all authorities are missing the very serious bigger picture. Possible neglect, Munchausen's, chronic mental health issues with the parent, drug use by the parent, parental alienation of the other parent, and attention-seeking behaviour by the parent to the detriment of the child.

As they did in the child J case. Social Services deemed that J was a girl and that J's father should have no contact with him.

For a long time until the Family Court became involved.

I'll just go out on a limb here and say an 18-month old putting on a bra? Didn't happen.

But let's say it did. Let's say she was irresponsible enough to let a child that age have access to something that can easily lead to strangulation injuries. As no 18-month old has any concept of the two sexes and no concept of the associated stereotypes (as with clothing), there would be no significance attached to a child that age preferring mum's clothes. In fact, as most toddlers are closely attached to a primary caregiver at this age, who is mum in most cases, liking mum's things is perfectly natural.

Presumably the nursery parents in the other article are similarly advised.

Is it possible its the same child?
No doubt the 'details' in the article were shared by Susie Green?

The above case that I just posted about was where Mermaids was advising the mother by the way.

Presumably the nursery parents in the other article are similarly advised.

Jackie Green was unlucky enough to have a homophobic father and a really stupid mother for parents.

From R0wan's article:

"This includes how they felt when a nursery phoned social services claiming a parent was forcing their boy to dress as a girl. After meeting the parents, social services went back to the nursery and told them to revise their policies concerning gender and diversity values".

The nursery stuff needs to be weighed alongside Justice Hayden's report into Child J, who was removed from the custody of his mother. His mother was adamant that J (a boy) was a girl.

www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2016/2430.html

Justice Hayden states about the role of Social Services:

"Not only are the conclusions of the report irreconcilable with the core information within it but it is striking that the Local Authority had moved into wholesale acceptance that J should be regarded as a girl. Once again, I make no apology for repeating the fact that J was still only 4 years of age. The conclusions of the report speak of J by use of the feminine pronoun. There was no independent or supportive evidence that J identified as a girl at all, indeed there was a body of material that suggested the contrary. The cry for investigation went unheeded".

Rowan the quotes from your last post are just horrific.

They need to be widely publicised, anyone so breathtakingly stupid should not be allowed anywhere near a children’s charity

2105 Interview with Susie Green for Day Nurseries

(extract)
“I first realised Jackie was different when she was 18 months old,” says her mum Susie Green.

"Although she was my first child, I had lots of nephews and nieces and Jackie just didn’t seem to behave like them.

“She’d go into my wardrobe, put on dresses and she even put my bra on at 18 months.

“The nursery staff were telling me Jackie was different when she went there at two and a half years old.”

Cross-dressing in the dressing up box

At nursery Jackie never played with the boys, always took a female role in the games played and would treat the soft toys like babies or pretend to have tea with them.

“She couldn’t wait to get into the dressing up box. She’d come out as Snow White with a jumper on her head and the arms trailing down to make it look like she had long hair.” (continues)

www.daynurseries.co.uk/news/article.cfm/id/1571947/Transgender-children-How-nurseries-can-support-those-with-gender-identity-issues

ibid

“But initially her dad just said: ‘I’m not having this’ and when she was aged about four he insisted we have a go at trying to stop her having anything girly. She had a few dolls which were put away. That lasted for about six weeks because she just disappeared into herself – she couldn’t even play with her cousins’ girl toys when she went round there. “It wasn’t my idea and I didn’t like it. She got depressed and would sit watching TV, not talking. She didn’t want to do anything. Then one day I found her hiding in a cupboard on the telephone.

My mum had called to see what she wanted for her birthday or Christmas or something and she was whispering ‘Can you buy me a Barbie and keep it at your house so I can play with it?’ And at this point I thought: ‘This is just not on’ because I realised I was battering her self-esteem and basically vilifying her as a person.”

Yorkshire Post Interview with Susie Green:

(extract)
“Oh good God yes,” she says. “I’ll be quite honest, if I could have had a choice I would have liked to have had a son who was completely heterosexual. Because I feared for her future. I wasn’t horrified by the prospect of her being a girl – although I did find it extremely difficult to come to terms with - I just knew how hard things life be for her.

“When she was such a girly boy from such an early age I even started hoping she might grow out of it and it might turn out that I had a gay son. I think I must have been one of the few parents who was actually praying I had a gay son. But you could see from about the age of three it wasn’t just the toys she played with it was as much as the way she played with them."

www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/health/from-jack-to-jackie-why-i-had-sex-change-at-16-1-4018711

Also from the documentary above it is important to be aware of the role that Dr Spack played in influencing and impacting both Susie & Jackie Green.

He has talked about how he deliberately prescribed cross sex hormone so that Jackie would not reach her natural height.

He is seen talking with Jackie Green and thanking her as she has helped his work. Susie Green also talks about how Dr Spack absolutely affirmed her child's belief at a very difficult time for the family & how important this relationship was.

His influence on the family as well as Mermaids charity is considerable and seems yet to gain much attention

From Daily Mail 2016:
'The woman who used to be a boy is now at the heart of a controversy over children as young as nine given drugs to change sex'
(extract)
"Scientific research on the impact of the hormone treatments on a young body is sparse. Some parents nevertheless ignore the NHS age rules and buy the hormones online or take their child to private clinics in the UK, the U.S., Holland or Germany.

Helen Webberley, a GP in Wales, has set up a gender clinic where a ‘handful’ of children have been put on cross-sex hormones, including a 12-year-old boy who was born a girl. According to Dr Webberley, this child had been on ‘blockers’ since the age of nine and did not want to wait until 16 to bring on his male puberty.

"The evangelist-in-chief for early medical intervention is 73-year-old Dr Norman Spack, a paediatric endocrinologist at the Boston Children’s Hospital in America. He is also the guiding light of Mermaids and a friend of both Susie Green and Dr Webberley.

He wants children who identify as transgender to routinely be given hormone-blocking drugs around the onset of puberty, and then move to high doses of hormones to change their sex, after which they can consider surgery.

The Spack philosophy is that age limits are arbitrary and often cruel. ‘Why wait?’ is his mantra. He says he has put ‘about 200 children’ onto hormone blockers, and claims 100 per cent have gone on to take cross-sex hormones because ‘no one changes their mind’

But other medics, such as Dr James Barrett, a consultant psychiatrist at London’s Charing Cross gender identity clinic, warns of the dangers of starting irreversible treatment too early."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3973036/Jackie-Green-heart-controversy-children-young-nine-given-drugs-change-sex.html

There is a clip somewhere (not sure if it was the TedTalk?)of Susie Green in conversation with Dr Spack where he happily talks of deliberately restricting Jackie Green's height because she would have been 'too tall' for a woman.

Last year, when she was interviewed for the Butterfly tv show launch, it was: "Terror quickly turned to denial for Susie and her husband Tim. Over and over again, they told Jack it was fine to be a boy who liked girlie things – but that didn’t make him a girl. But Jack just kept telling them that was not who he was."

Its worth watching the documentary about Jackie Green wanting to win beauty pageants. It was filmed when Jackie was 18 (I think)

In it Susie Green describes the horror /embarassment /shame (?) she felt when her young son went into shops, headed for the sections with girls clothes and obviously enjoyed the clothes there. Susie Green describes being concerned about what people 'must' be thinking.

Yes, why hasn't Jackie said anything about this? They are 27 years old (so perfectly capable of speaking for themselves without their mum)

Are they? Or are they more like 14yo as a result of their puberty bring screwed up so that they haven't had the chance to mature properly?

My son liked a lot of girlie stuff when age 6 and at primary school played mainly with girls as he was quite a gentle boy. If he'd mentioned wanting to be a girl he would have been told firmly by both parents that that was impossible and that it was OK for boys to have a wide range of interests and toys. His dad and I did similar jobs and had similar hobbies and both shared housework so he probably saw that men weren't that different from women in what you could actually do in your life anyway.
He became noticably more masculine when puberty hit in. Puberty blockers just stop the normal development of children and I think should be seen as child abuse.

And how does a six year old know an operation is even a possibility? Because an adult has told them so.

Well done. It’s important that the changing story is evidenced.

Not on normal archive sites I don't think hipster. But good point - I've downloaded it in case it mysteriously disappears ...

In her TED X talk In 2017

Can video content be archived?

Was also absolutely not calling on Jackie G to say anything nor have their views sought in any way whatsoever, should have made that very clear.

Just can't help noticing no public support of their mother being offered by Jackie, someone who has previously been in the press, that's all.

I note that Susie has changed her story of late. In her TED X talk In 2017 she said "At six years old she kept asking me 'when can I have the operation to make me a girl?' and it was really hard for me as a parent to watch the devastation when I told her she'd have to wait until she was a grown-up"

Last year, when she was interviewed for the Butterfly tv show launch, it was: "Terror quickly turned to denial for Susie and her husband Tim. Over and over again, they told Jack it was fine to be a boy who liked girlie things – but that didn’t make him a girl. But Jack just kept telling them that was not who he was."

She never told Jack it was fine to be a boy who liked girlie things, she told him that he could have an operation when he grew up.

No I wasn't literally calling on Jackie to say anything, they don't owe anything to anyone. I was just making an observation really.